I see the similarity of java  to cobol in the longevity of the
language: java will be 'round long time.



On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Johan Steyn<johan.steyn@gmai...> wrote:
> Well articulated Brendon.
>
> I was just discussing something along similar (parallel) lines with
> colleagues over lunch. I asked a fellow engineer why he eats sushi: whether
> it is because of the taste, or fashion/hype. We agreed how irritating some
> pretentious wine lables are with their marketing bullshit like: "a
> full-bodied fruity aroma, with a distinct yet subtle black olive presence, a
> delicate hint of cinamon, laced with the flavour of forest oaks and rounded
> off with a smoky edge.".
>
> Now, I appreciate a good wine, and there are days when a screw top Tassies
> serves me well - call me a pleb if you wish. The kind of food and wine you
> prefer comes down to personal choice, and indicates a cultural preference.
> Culture is not something high and aloof - it essentially boils down to your
> daily activities and the resulting company you choose to keep.
>
> And similar choices apply in choosing my day job: I prefer to program in a
> more vendor-neutral world, where I am likely to rub shoulders with more
> interesting, even eccentric individuals. Of course, there are always suits
> as well, and PHB's, but that comes with the necessity of earning a wage to
> pay the rent and bills. As long as those suits and PHB's allow me to use the
> tools I choose to (I use GVim and Maven and Subversion - and Bash on the
> command line), then I am fairly happy. As soon as someone tries to dictate
> the tools I need to use, resentment starts building... it's a cultural
> thing, and to me freedom is important. Java, and open source in general,
> gives me that sense of freedom, which I like. And I tend to associate with
> people who value that sense of freedom and individuality.
>
> And that is also why Java is so *not* like COBOL, and hopefully never will
> be. It's just not the same culture.
>
> Johan.
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Brendon McLean <brendon.mclean@gmai...>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to offer another take on this argument.  Johan came close to
>> articulating my views, but I feel a need to spell it out myself so
>> bear with me.
>>
>> Whether to use Java over .NET, or Java instead of Ruby, or whichever
>> comparison one chooses to make is, for me, a matter that is more
>> determined by tastes than by technical arguments alone.  Choosing to
>> focus on Java over .NET actually has quite a discernible impact on
>> one's career.  You'll work with different types of people, who have
>> different interests and different passions.  Java and .NET solve
>> largely the same set of problems, but your stereotypical Java
>> programmer is quite different to your stereotypical .NET programmer.
>> Finding out how your interests align with these stereotypes is
>> probably more important than technical arguments.
>>
>> Your average Java programmer is generally, at best, a sceptic when it
>> comes to Microsoft.  This is for a variety of reasons including a
>> distrust of vendor lock-in, or just the chilling memories of Microsoft
>> in the late 90s.  The aversion to lock-in is a bedrock of Java which
>> has resulted in a plethora of standards and vendor implementations
>> which is both a strength and a weakness of Java.  There are more ways
>> to skin a cat in Java than in .NET and they are generally open
>> source.  Java programmers are some of the most ardent proponents of
>> open source in the programming world.  As a result of this, they are
>> more likely to use Linux and be comfortable with the Unix command
>> line.  In my experience, Java programmers are more cerebral, more
>> academic, more likely to know more languages and generally more
>> interested in the evolution of software, languages and platforms.
>>
>> All of this sounds like an insult to .NET programmers, but Java
>> programmers have their weaknesses too.  .NET programmers are less
>> likely to prematurely abstract, less likely to re-invent the wheel and
>> less likely to over-engineer.  A .NET programmer is generally more
>> interested in simply getting the job the done, and more likely to get
>> it done under budget and on time.  As a result, .NET projects are
>> frequently smaller, iterate faster and are closer to
>> requirements.  .NET programmers are usually happy in all things
>> Microsoft and happy enough using proscribed tools and libraries.  In
>> short, .NET programmers are generally less fuss.
>>
>> These are of course huge generalisations, and there are plenty of
>> examples to counter every point I've made.  But generalisations are
>> useful insofar as informing a career choice.  I am firmly in the Java
>> camp simply because I find it's culture more suited to my interests.
>> I'm passionate about programming, and just working with people with
>> whom I can have an intelligent debate is worth more to me than any
>> technical aspect of the language.  Java's glory days may be over, and
>> language itself showing its age, but I'm hopeful it's successor will
>> emerge within the Java platform.  Were I starting my career again, I'd
>> still choose Java over .NET again.
>>
>> In short, my advice is to be honest to yourself about what type of
>> programmer you are.  You're not only choosing a language, you're
>> choosing your peers.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Brendon McLean.
>>
>> On 8 Jun 2009, at 12:38, Johan Mynhardt wrote:
>>
>> > On 08/06/2009 11:50, Dr Heinz M. Kabutz wrote:
>> >> Java of course ...
>> >>
>> >> but */not/ *because of the simplicity, beauty nor elegance of the
>> >> language.  I can hire Java programmers off the street.  I can give
>> >> them
>> >> great tools like IntelliJ to use.  We can use JPA and many other
>> >> frameworks and APIs to make us do the work quickly.
>> >>
>> >> If you had asked someone this question in the 80s, what would you
>> >> develop a new business system in, they would probably have answered
>> >> COBOL.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> Heinz
>> >
>> > Hmm I have to respond to this one :P
>> >
>> > As a young developer still struggling to find my feet and the ins and
>> > outs of my future, I can (I hope so) also give my views on the
>> > discussion that my simple question started.
>> >
>> > First things First: I'd rather die than working in a M$ environment.
>> > Maybe from there my emotions toward the use of C# and other M$
>> > technologies.
>> > However, where I studied, Java had very little support in academics. I
>> > struggled through the course I was doing, almost entirely on my own.
>> > The
>> > rest had done C#. As I discovered during the discussion it is somewhat
>> > so that any M$ technology uses a lot of the proprietary API's and thus
>> > most students will learn from those and have static ways of getting
>> > things done since most support is transparent to them.
>> >
>> > Now, I had some verbal conflict with a friend of mine on the subject
>> > of
>> > C# API vs. C# Syntax.  I pretty much got him to switch to Linux
>> > (Ubuntu)
>> > from Windows, where he had M$ Developer Studio. Correct me if i'm
>> > wrong,
>> > but that's RAD-de-lux. It can basically do your work for you just
>> > intercepting your brainwaves. So back in Ubuntu he installed Mono and
>> > MonoDevelop.
>> > To my disappointment the very first thing he tried to do was to
>> > display
>> > a dialogbox by importing the Microsoft namespace or whatever you
>> > call it
>> > in C# of which I have no knowledge really (it could be something else,
>> > but I know it had something to do with M$). Long story short, it
>> > didn't
>> > work. So a few weeks pass and he returned with nearly the following
>> > line: "I have talked to another friend of mine and he said the problem
>> > is the syntax, that's why it didn't work. Mono's syntax differs from C
>> > sharp's." From there our conflict begun because my first instinct
>> > was to
>> > actually consult Mono's documentation to see what API's I have at my
>> > disposal and use that! Someone, please tell me I had the correct
>> > instinct and it actually IS the API?
>> >
>> > Ok, that was a little off-topic but now:
>> >
>> >> but */not/ *because of the simplicity, beauty nor elegance of the
>> >> language.
>> >
>> > Nobody said Java should be simple or beautiful or elegant. To me, it's
>> > not. Although I tried learning Python, just to find that from what I
>> > have tried to learn, I actually became more productive in Java...
>> > still
>> > no improvement in Python. This was really weird to me.
>> >
>> >> ...I can give them
>> >> great tools like IntelliJ to use.  We can use JPA and many other
>> >> frameworks and APIs to make us do the work quickly.
>> >
>> > Yet again, as being young in the industry, it takes time to use all
>> > those wonderful, fantastic glorious tools. And with something
>> > similar to
>> > a swissknife, you have to actually know how to operate the knife so
>> > you
>> > don't amputate your arm.
>> >
>> > I do know that I'm set for a future without an end in academics.
>> > There's
>> > always something new to learn and do. But in the end, I like Java
>> > not so
>> > much because I like to be different, but because I have done my part
>> > on
>> > research why I consider it to be my main preference. I'm not into
>> > hardware (yet), so no need for something with low(er)-level access to
>> > the system. And probably another reason is that while I studied, Java
>> > cost me sweat, blood and tears, (almost literally) so there's a
>> > "deeper"
>> > connection to it. I understand how things work and why. Not everything
>> > yet, but I can help myself from a starting point.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Johan Mynhardt
>> > Free State Linux Users Group
>> >
>> > m : +2772 432 8108
>> > e : johanmynhardt at gmail.com
>> > w : http://nuvolari.co.za
>> >   : http://flug.org.za
>> > i : irc://irc.freenode.net/#flug.org.za
>> >   : irc://irc.freenode.net/#ubuntu-za
>> >
>> > >
>> > <johanmynhardt.vcf>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> >
>



--
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