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a : aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com 6 February 2006 • 3:55PM -0500

AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 02/05/06
by AeroElectric-List Digest Server

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                     Total Messages Posted Sun 02/05/06: 24
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------

     1. 02:09 AM - Re: Press to Test  (Gerry Holland)
     2. 06:33 AM - EmPower jack source - was Airline style 2-pin 12v power outlet jacks...  (Greg Campbell)
     3. 07:05 AM - Re: Dual Alternator Use  ()
     4. 07:13 AM - Hall Effect Current Sensor Location  (JOHNATHAN MACY)
     5. 08:03 AM - Engine Cowl Temperatures  ()
     6. 08:42 AM - Re: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 08:42 AM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (George Braly)
     8. 09:13 AM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (Vincent Welch)
     9. 09:30 AM - Re: Hall effect current sensor location  (Brian Lloyd)
    10. 10:00 AM - Re: Press to Test  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 10:02 AM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (Alan K. Adamson)
    12. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Dual Alternator Use  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 10:05 AM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (David Lloyd)
    14. 10:28 AM - Re: EmPower jack source - was Airline style 2-pin 12v power outlet jacks...  (John Schroeder)
    15. 10:43 AM - Re: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location  (John Schroeder)
    16. 01:10 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06  (speedy11@aol....)
    17. 01:26 PM - Re: 24v lamps in 14v system . . .  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    18. 03:15 PM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (Alex Peterson)
    19. 03:15 PM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (Alex Peterson)
    20. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06  (Brian Lloyd)
    21. 06:14 PM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (Alex Peterson)
    22. 08:56 PM - Re: Engine Cowl Temperatures  (Brian Lloyd)
    23. 09:08 PM - 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply  (Wngsfrmhvn@aol....)
    24. 09:28 PM - Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply  (Brian Lloyd)



________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________


Time: 02:09:20 AM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Press to Test
From: Gerry Holland <gholland@gemi...>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gholland@gemi...>

Bob Hi!

As ever thanks for your useful response.

>     I'd need to know more about what kind of signal tests your
>     annunciator panel lights and what kind of signal illuminates
>     the lamp in your MS25041-8 fixture.

I honesty I had not thought the whole thing through at all!

I'm applying a test voltage to my various warning lamps using diode
protected circuits and a normal press to make contact Sx.
It was one of those days!

Regards

Gerry













________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________


Time: 06:33:11 AM PST US
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EmPower jack source - was Airline style 2-pin 12v power
outlet jacks...
From: Greg Campbell <gregcampbellusa@gmai...>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Greg Campbell <gregcampbellusa@gmai...>

John,

I already have a bunch of cigarette lighter outlets,
so the EmPower jack would be in addition to those.

There are lots of good 3 and 4 pin latching connectors,
but I'm trying to find the "other half" of the new airline standard "EmPower
connector".  
I figured somebody on this list would know where to get one or two.

I have a Kensington Universal Power Supply that plugs securely
into an "EmPower connection", as well as a cigarette lighter plug
or 120vac power cord.  So this one slim power supply will work
in the car, plane, or hotel room.

us.kensington.com/html/6368.html
<http://www.us.kensington.com/html/6368.html>

It's one slick little power supply and I got several of them at Costco.
I plan to keep one with each laptop, and hardwire one into the plane.

The neat thing is once it's powered up - you don't have to get to the brick
itself
to change the power settings.  You slip on the appropriate "Smart Tip" and
the
tip will select and provide the correct voltage.  It will "up convert" my
12vdc airplane power
to the 18vdc x 120 Watts that my laptop requires.  Or I can pop the tip off
and replace it with one that fits my cell phone and it will put out 5vdc.
Or, you
can put on the splitter and do both at once!

In the past, I used to run my laptop in the plane from a kluge of an
inverter
to go 12vdc -> 120vac, and then used the laptop's AC adapter to go from
120vac -> 18vdc.  But that was a pain!  Cables everywhere - a noisy fan
on the inverter - and it produced "modified sine wave" AC, which I suspect
somehow killed one or two expen$ive laptop batteries - because they never
seemed to hold much of a charge after doing this.

This is a much cleaner solution - and the Kensington comes with both
cigarette lighter adapter as well as the EmPower connection.  Since the
EmPower connection has a latch & four pins (two for power, two for data).
The power pins appear to be  smallish, but gold plated & high quality.
And they are obviously rated to handle the 10 Amps plus that would be
required to meet the 120W continuous power output rating.  I figured the
best
solution would be to locate a source for the EmPower jack and wire that into

the plane.  Then I could securely click the Kensington power supply into
that
and easily remove it if I needed to work on it or use it in a rental car,
etc..


So the question remains - does anyone have a source for the EmPower jack ?


And the other half of the question - will I have to "program" the EmPower
jack's
two data pins so that it will willingly provide power to the gizmo I plug
into it?
support.gateway.com/s/Mobile/peripher/6500687/6500687mvr4.shtml

I vaguely remember reading something about "smart power distribution" in
which
the consumer had to identify itself and it's power requirements before the
power outlet
would actually provide the power.  This was to provide two protections:
1)       the consumer won't overload the supplier, and
2)       the supplier would recognize when the consumer was drawing more
than expected
(e.g.  the source might be capable of providing 10 Amps, but would refuse to
provide
more if the device tells it never needs more than 2 Amps, then it would shut
off power
to the device if it started drawing more than 2 Amps)

Depending on how they do this - I might need to program the two data pins so
they
will allow the Kensington to draw up to say 12 Amps at 12 volts.  (Allowing
for inefficiency.)

Anyway - any sources would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Greg













________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________


Time: 07:05:37 AM PST US
From: <gmcjetpilot@yaho...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator Use

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yaho...>

>From:  "Mark Neubauer" <markn@fuse...> Subject:  Dual Alternator Use
> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Neubauer" <markn@fuse...>
  
        >Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about the use
of my
      >B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it OK to use
      >them both at the same time, yielding an available current output of 48 amps,
      >or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is
      >disengaged?
.....>
      >Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
      >electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
      >(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
      >
      >Mark Neubauer
  
  
Mark:
  
  .....What about running two alternators simultaneously in parallel but isolated.
The 40 amp does the Yeoman's duty, lets call that the (A) system, and the
SD8 back-up runs say 5 amps of other (B) system items. If the SD8 died
you still have the 40 amp. If the SD8 died you would still have system (A).
If you wanted you could manually cross feed the (B) buss and (A) buss in
event one system died (after suitable load shedding, e.g., turning stuff off).
This is the way the Big (jet) Boys do it. Parallel but isolated.
  
  Cons:
.....-Wt. (1lb) for small 0.8-1.2 amp/hr back-up (B) system battery
  .....-You may be able to use a capacitor vs. a battery for the SD8
  http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V1-3
  http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V0-8
  
  
  Pros:  
.....-True redundancy with isolated systems working in parallel
.....-Reduced load on the (A) system alternator (B sys not dead wt.)
.....-One system will not affect the other (good thing)

  
  
THE MARINE SOLUTION
  If you MUST have dual sync'ed alternators consider the SD-20 and a
marine voltage regulator. I suggest the SD-20 to keep the dual
alternators of the same type. Marine regulators have been paralleling
dual alternators for decades. They don't cost much more than one so
called advanced regulator. They have all the protection you could
every want: Now having different models of alternators with different
power output potential may pose a challenge, but the marine
companies no doubt have a solution. They may be able to parallel the
SD-8 and L-40 even? You would have to ask. (food for thought only).  
  
  http://www.amplepower.com/products/sarv3/index.html
  http://www.amplepower.com/products/dual_alt/index.html
http://www.amplepower.com/products/sysnav_ic/index.html
  http://www.sterling-power.com/
(select>product>adv alternator reg>pro digital)

I am NOT saying this is the way to go about it, but I'm trying to open  
your mind. Marine apps. have been making real rugged, reliable and  
redundant DC electrical systems for a long time. If you get into real    
Air Transport design and equipment it's AC, paralleled AC systems,  
not readily applicable to our single engine DC systems. Boat stuff
  has some of the most applicable ideas to little planes. (food/thought)

  
  
  BIG PICTURE, MISS MATCHED IDEAS AND PLANES:
  The marine stuff has lots of ideas for super systems. I personally have  
only one I-VR alternator & battery. The obsession with air transport  
category electics in a single engine plane is overkill, and can distract
from an overall goal IMHO (simple, light and cost effective). Regardless
what you do, you have one engine and many single failure points that  
are way more critical to your health than wires in your plane.
  
  It is just a thought, take it or leave it, intelligent comments welcomed.
  
  Flame Suit On, Cheers George


---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with












________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________


Time: 07:13:34 AM PST US
From: JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot@opto...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot@opto...>

Bob,

My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus.
The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also planning on using
two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into the Blue Mountain EFIS.

Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output side (B)
on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?

Thanks,
Johnathan
Glastar #5731













________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________


Time: 08:03:44 AM PST US
From: <bakerocb@cox....>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox....>


Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>

<<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
down, unless it is
10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
it can move slightly to the side.  It is amazing how much steam comes up out
of there.  Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>

2/5/2006

Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
dipstick cap also.

How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water vapor?
I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
greasy it is.

OC













________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________


Time: 08:42:14 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 10:12 AM 2/5/2006 -0500, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JOHNATHAN MACY
><bushpilot@opto...>
>
>Bob,
>
>My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split
>Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also planning
>on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into the Blue
>Mountain EFIS.
>
>Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output
>side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?

   Depends on what you want to measure along with your
   understanding of what the readings mean. I've seen
   hall effects installed over battery cables, bus feeders
   and alternator b-leads. Each location provides a reading
   that has some behavior and significance useful for
   troubleshooting the ailing system but none provide
   data useful for operating the airplane.

   My personal choice would be to monitor alternator
   output (sensors on b-leads). But if I had to work on
   an airplane where the sensors were someplace else,
   it would be essential to know WHERE the sensors are
   so that the readings have diagnostic significance.

   It's a toss of the coin and/or a purely personal
   choice.

   Bob . . .


      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >
      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >
      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >
      < with experiment.                                      >
      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >













________________________________  Message 7  _____________________________________


Time: 08:42:14 AM PST US
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
From: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami...>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami...>


Keep in mind that if you get the oil hot enough on each flight to boil
off the water in the oil - - then opening the dip stick filler tube
appears to accomplish very little.

I like to see the oil temp get to at least 180-190dF above 5000 feet on
each flight to make sure the water turns to vapor and out the breather
tube.

I think a lot of these nifty little "tricks" - - that have accumulated
over the years really turn out to be based on very little data.  In many
cases there appears to not really even be a theoretical basis as to why
the practice is better.   (Turbo cool down 5 minute waits, is another
example.)

Regards,  George



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matr...
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matr...] On Behalf Of
bakerocb@cox....
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox....>


Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>

<<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut

down, unless it is
10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up
until
it can move slightly to the side.  It is amazing how much steam comes up
out
of there.  Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>

2/5/2006

Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
dipstick cap also.

How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
vapor?
I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
greasy it is.

OC



























________________________________  Message 8  _____________________________________


Time: 09:13:55 AM PST US
From: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent@hotm...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent@hotm...>

Just a quick question Alex.  As the engine cools with the dipstick open,
won't that just suck more (possibly moisture laden) air back into the oil
sump?


Vince


>From: <bakerocb@cox....>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matr...>, <alexpeterson@eart...>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:00:36 -0500
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox....>
>
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
>Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>
>
><<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
>down, unless it is
>10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
>Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
>it can move slightly to the side.  It is amazing how much steam comes up
>out
>of there.  Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
>dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
>
>2/5/2006
>
>Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
>dipstick cap also.
>
>How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
>vapor?
>I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
>greasy it is.
>
>OC
>
>














________________________________  Message 9  _____________________________________


Time: 09:30:33 AM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>



Brinker wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-...>
>
>         Is'nt a connection to a good hot 12v battery sufficient for the
> layman ? I can see the need for a bench test unit if for a on going
> business.

When testing out your panel it is nice to have an adjustable power
supply. First, it doesn't do your battery any good to run it down and
recharge unless it is a deep-cycle battery.

With a variable bench supply you can test things at various voltages
such as 13.8V (alternator working), 12.5V (full battery), and 10.5V
(dead battery). You will be surprised at how badly many pieces of
equipment work at low voltage and you may want to resize your battery to
ensure that you have sufficient voltage for your specified endurance period.

You can also hook your bench supply up to the alternator 'B' lead and
test your loadmeter, battery charging, etc. By varying the voltage from
the bench supply and watching the field current you can verify that the
voltage regulator is functioning normally.

--
Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery












________________________________  Message 10  ____________________________________


Time: 10:00:02 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Press to Test

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 10:01 AM 2/5/2006 +0000, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland
><gholland@gemi...>
>
>Bob Hi!
>
>As ever thanks for your useful response.
>
> >     I'd need to know more about what kind of signal tests your
> >     annunciator panel lights and what kind of signal illuminates
> >     the lamp in your MS25041-8 fixture.
>
>I honesty I had not thought the whole thing through at all!
>
>I'm applying a test voltage to my various warning lamps using diode
>protected circuits and a normal press to make contact Sx.
>It was one of those days!

   The press to test lamp fixture has a schematic that looks
   like this:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg

   The details I was needing to see if your single-ptt-button
   thing would work was how your lights are wired. See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Ganged_PTT_Scheme_1.gif

   Here . . . ALL lamps are pulled up from ground to illumnate.
   In this case, you can used the PTT feature in the MS25041 fixture
   to drive a transistor that will cause ALL annunciators to receive
   PTT power when depressing the single fixture. If any of your
   lamps are pull-down-to-ground, then you need a second transistor
   and a few more parts to drive the whole array of lamps.

   Bob . . .


      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >
      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >
      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >
      < with experiment.                                      >
      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >













________________________________  Message 11  ____________________________________


Time: 10:02:28 AM PST US
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@high...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@high...>

Yep, I would agree, if the Oil temp is above in the operating range, and
based upon Georges data, that the temp outside after shutdown was close to
the boiling stage, then all the water should have be evaporated.  Opening
the dip stick cause me two concerns.  It allows FOD (bugs come to mind) and
condensated moisture a place to get into the engine.  That little dip stick
makes for a good conduit for both.

Oil won't COKE until it's way hotter than our operating temps and with
today's oils, I suspect that the "blend" compensates for any tendency to
COKE anyway.

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matr...
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matr...] On Behalf Of Vincent
Welch
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vincent Welch"
--> <welchvincent@hotm...>

Just a quick question Alex.  As the engine cools with the dipstick open,
won't that just suck more (possibly moisture laden) air back into the oil
sump?


Vince


>From: <bakerocb@cox....>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matr...>, <alexpeterson@eart...>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:00:36 -0500
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox....>
>
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
>Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>
>
><<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I
>shut down, unless it is 10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat
>for a few hours.
>Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up
>until it can move slightly to the side.  It is amazing how much steam
>comes up out of there.  Where do you suppose that steam would end up if
>you leave the dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
>
>2/5/2006
>
>Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
>dipstick cap also.
>
>How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
>vapor?
>I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
>greasy it is.
>
>OC
>
>




























________________________________  Message 12  ____________________________________


Time: 10:05:50 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator Use

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 07:03 AM 2/5/2006 -0800, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yaho...>
>
> >From:  "Mark Neubauer" <markn@fuse...> Subject:  Dual Alternator Use
> > AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Neubauer" <markn@fuse...>
>
>         >Being one of Bob's electronic disciples, I was wondering about
> the use of my
>       >B&C 40amp alternator with the SD-8 together in my GlaStar. Is it
> OK to use
>       >them both at the same time, yielding an available current output
> of 48 amps,
>       >or should the SD-8 only be energized when the main alternator is
>       >disengaged?
>.....>
>       >Are there voltage regulation problems having both alternators pumping
>       >electrons into the system busses at slightly different set voltages
>       >(determined by the exact regulator settings)?
>       >
>       >Mark Neubauer
>
>
>Mark:
>
>   .....What about running two alternators simultaneously in parallel but
> isolated.
>The 40 amp does the Yeoman's duty, lets call that the (A) system, and the
>SD8 back-up runs say 5 amps of other (B) system items. If the SD8 died
>you still have the 40 amp. If the SD8 died you would still have system (A).
>If you wanted you could manually cross feed the (B) buss and (A) buss in
>event one system died (after suitable load shedding, e.g., turning stuff off).
>This is the way the Big (jet) Boys do it. Parallel but isolated.
>
>   Cons:
>.....-Wt. (1lb) for small 0.8-1.2 amp/hr back-up (B) system battery
>   .....-You may be able to use a capacitor vs. a battery for the SD8
>   http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V1-3
>   http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=SLA-12V0-8
>
>
>   Pros:
>.....-True redundancy with isolated systems working in parallel
>.....-Reduced load on the (A) system alternator (B sys not dead wt.)
>.....-One system will not affect the other (good thing)
>
>      "Parallel but isolated" doesn't bring a lucid image to mind
>      but I think Figure Z-14 is what you're talking about.
>
>THE MARINE SOLUTION
>   If you MUST have dual sync'ed alternators consider the SD-20 and a
>marine voltage regulator. I suggest the SD-20 to keep the dual
>alternators of the same type. Marine regulators have been paralleling
>dual alternators for decades. They don't cost much more than one so
>called advanced regulator. They have all the protection you could
>every want: Now having different models of alternators with different
>power output potential may pose a challenge, but the marine
>companies no doubt have a solution. They may be able to parallel the
>SD-8 and L-40 even? You would have to ask. (food for thought only).
>
>   http://www.amplepower.com/products/sarv3/index.html
>   http://www.amplepower.com/products/dual_alt/index.html
>http://www.amplepower.com/products/sysnav_ic/index.html
>   http://www.sterling-power.com/
>(select>product>adv alternator reg>pro digital)
>
>I am NOT saying this is the way to go about it, but I'm trying to open
>your mind. Marine apps. have been making real rugged, reliable and
>redundant DC electrical systems for a long time. If you get into real
>Air Transport design and equipment it's AC, paralleled AC systems,
>not readily applicable to our single engine DC systems. Boat stuff
>   has some of the most applicable ideas to little planes. (food/thought)

      The regulators described are intended to PARALLEL two
      alternators (running on perhaps different engines a-la
      C-337, Beech Baron, etc.) to a single bus structure
      and single battery or batteries in parallel. The engine
      driven power sources drive a common bus full time
      and cannot be isolated.


>   BIG PICTURE, MISS MATCHED IDEAS AND PLANES:
>   The marine stuff has lots of ideas for super systems. I personally have
>only one I-VR alternator & battery. The obsession with air transport
>category electics in a single engine plane is overkill, and can distract
>from an overall goal IMHO (simple, light and cost effective). Regardless
>what you do, you have one engine and many single failure points that
>are way more critical to your health than wires in your plane.

      Very few machines being crafted for the OBAM aircraft
      community can make use of Z-14 style systems. Dual
      electrical systems make sense only when you have dual
      cockpit systems both capable of launching into the
      worst you intend to traverse. I can't imagine any
      airplane short of a fully decked out LAIVP making
      good use of Z-14.  However, if one plans to have two
      alternators, driving them from a common regulator scheme
      into a single battery structure doesn't make sense
      either. The Main/Aux alternator schemes described in
      the Z-Figures ASSUME that at least one alternator
      (main) will easily carry ALL of the maximum anticipated
      running loads without support from the other alternator
      (aux). The duties of the aux alternator are to pick up
      minimal needed loads in the RARE event that the main
      alternator becomes unavailable.

      Paralleling multiple alternators to run full time
      into a single bus structure is exactly what the
      "big guys" do. Further, they may also depend on both
      generators being on line to carry normal max running
      loads. This architecture leads to a variety problems
      with failure modes, meeting load analysis goals and
      supplying 30 minutes of snort when a system designed
      to suffer emergencies goes completely dark.

      If one plans an all-electric panel, then there's a
      vacuum pump pad open. It seems a waste not to plug
      that pad with a 4-pound alternator installation which
      gives rise to Figure Z-13/8.

      This architecture is suited to 99+ percent of any
      OBAM aircraft flying wherein the builder would be
      willing to launch into his/her favorite IMC in a
      Piper Cherokee fitted with a generator and vacuum pump.

      Z-13/8 offers a hedge against the vast majority of
      single point failures that would have taken the
      panel dark in certified ships for the past six
      decades for a 4-pound weight penalty. Further, Z-11
      is easy to start out with and morph into Z-13/8
      at a future time if you feel it's desirable.

      If anyone is considering a Z-14 style installation,
      let's talk. It's going to be heavier, more complex
      and not likely to service your needs in anything
      short of an airplane like the Lancair IVP I described
      above. If you believe there is a necessity/benefit
      from running both alternators full time into a common
      bus, let's talk some more. This should not be necessary.

      Mark, if you have planned loads in your project that
      would overload a 40A machine, please consider a 60A
      alternator and keep the SD-8 in relaxed reserve for
      what it does best.

      It's really easy for the neophyte builder to succumb
      to much of what's misunderstood by the general public
      (including most pilots) as to what kinds of failures
      really put an airplane in jeopardy and what practical
      countermeasures will mitigate the risk. Your #1 backup
      in ANY airplane is the flashlight and hand-helds in
      your flight bag. The rest is icing on the cake. But take
      care lest you pile 10 pounds of icing on a two pound
      cake. 10 years from now, you will wish that you had that
      extra weight carrying ability available for fuel and
      baggage (and that the cost-of-ownership dollars had
      gone into your retirement account).


      Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 13  ____________________________________


Time: 10:05:50 AM PST US
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@char...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@char...>

George nailed it.....
99% of internal case moisture is blasted out the breather as all the
internal thrashing is going on at elevated temps.  I suspect the moisture
vapor seen at the dipstick opening is very minor and is probably what was
trapped in the tube itself.

I do like to opening the top cowl door, oil fill in my case, as that lets
latent heat escape faster and may, in the long run, be easier on all the
non-metal stuff that is associated with the top of an engine.  However, if
your top cowl door is pretty high, out of eye sight, it maybe easy to forget
to close it for the next quickie flight.  I took a block of soft foam, cut a
slit in it, and slide the edge of the door into the slit.  This way the door
stands straight up in easy eye sight as well as the foam has to be removed,
etc.  Never forgotten to close it this way.....
D

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent@hotm...>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures


> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vincent Welch"
> <welchvincent@hotm...>
>
> Just a quick question Alex.  As the engine cools with the dipstick open,
> won't that just suck more (possibly moisture laden) air back into the oil
> sump?
>
>
> Vince
>
>
>>From: <bakerocb@cox....>
>>To: <aeroelectric-list@matr...>, <alexpeterson@eart...>
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures
>>Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:00:36 -0500
>>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox....>
>>
>>
>>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Alex
>>Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>
>>
>><<.....skip......Somewhat related, I always open my oil door when I shut
>>down, unless it is
>>10F outside like today, and I'm conserving heat for a few hours.
>>Additionally, when shutting down for the day, I pull the dipstick up until
>>it can move slightly to the side.  It is amazing how much steam comes up
>>out
>>of there.  Where do you suppose that steam would end up if you leave the
>>dipstick in tight? Alex Peterson>>
>>
>>2/5/2006
>>
>>Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start opening my
>>dipstick cap also.
>>
>>How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead of water
>>vapor?
>>I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass to see how
>>greasy it is.
>>
>>OC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>













________________________________  Message 14  ____________________________________


Time: 10:28:16 AM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EmPower jack source - was Airline style 2-pin 12v
power outlet jacks...
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@peri...>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@peri...>

Greg -

This is more complicated than I understood, but not that complicated a  
concept. I have a Motion 1400 and it has a brick. In an airplane, or car  
for that matter, it is a pain to put it someplace that is out of the way.  
Wiring a permament variable voltage supply into the plane would be nice.  
I'll look into the Kennsington, but the Motion needs 19 volts/3 amp out.  
Weird voltage. The brick input is flexible: 12-32v & 8 amp. I'd hardwire  
this brick into the plane except that it really is great to have on a road  
trip - both for road maps and email in hotels.

Let me know what you find on the Empower wiring, sources, etc.

Cheers,

John


On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 09:28:35 -0500, Greg Campbell  
<gregcampbellusa@gmai...> wrote:

> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Greg Campbell  
> <gregcampbellusa@gmai...>
>
> John,
> I already have a bunch of cigarette lighter outlets,
> so the EmPower jack would be in addition to those.
> There are lots of good 3 and 4 pin latching connectors,
> but I'm trying to find the "other half" of the new airline standard  
> "EmPower
> connector".


--














________________________________  Message 15  ____________________________________


Time: 10:43:30 AM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@peri...>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@peri...>

Jonathan -

We have the very same electrical system and EFIS in our Lancair ES (not  
flying yet). We have the non-FADEC IO-550N, although we had a FADEC on  
order. We installed two current sensors - one on each feed from the  
alternator/battery connection to its respective buss. This gives us the  
load on each buss under normal flight. However, it does not provide the  
load on the batteries because of the battery busses. I'm guessing you'll  
have one channel of the FADEC on each battery buss and feeding to its  
control unit via a switch on the panel. Unless you want to install 4 hall  
effect modules, I would still recommend putting the two where we did. You  
will probably never cut electrical load by turning off one channel of the  
FADEC, so you know what that current draw will always be. So, you can  
mentally add it to the readings on the E1. The rest of battery buss stuff  
is very low draw and switchable.

When it comes to wiring the sensors, make sure you ground the voltage  
dividers to the EFIS ground via a ground pin on either Analog 1 or Analog  
2 or Analog 3 (if you have it). We also temporarily wired an ammeter into  
the feed lines to the busses and turned on each item on that buss to get  
its amps draw. We then turned on the E! in the calibrate mode and turned  
each device on and read its AD number. This gave us a good calibration  
table and the amps read pretty accurately.

Hope this helps.

John Schroeder
Lancair ES - painting 65% complete
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder


On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 10:12:22 -0500, JOHNATHAN MACY  
<bushpilot@opto...> wrote:

> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JOHNATHAN MACY  
> <bushpilot@opto...>
>
> Bob,
>
> My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator,  
> Split Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also  
> planning on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into  
> the Blue Mountain EFIS.
>
> Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output  
> side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?
>
> Thanks,
> Johnathan
> Glastar #5731
>
>



--














________________________________  Message 16  ____________________________________


Time: 01:10:36 PM PST US
From: speedy11@aol....
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: speedy11@aol....

Listers,
I have a question for you.
I have a 12V electrical system with two batteries and one alternator.  I would
like to power 24V position lights.  What must I do to accomplish that?
Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only those
lights?  I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net













________________________________  Message 17  ____________________________________


Time: 01:26:00 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24v lamps in 14v system . . .

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 04:05 PM 2/5/2006 -0500, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: speedy11@aol....
>
>  Listers,
>I have a question for you.
>I have a 12V electrical system with two batteries and one alternator.  I
>would like to power 24V position lights.  What must I do to accomplish that?
>Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only
>those lights?  I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.
>Stan Sutterfield

    Have you considered changing the light bulbs in
    the position light fixtures? They're generally
    available in both 12 and 24 volt versions.

    Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 18  ____________________________________


Time: 03:15:47 PM PST US
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>


> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vincent Welch"
> --> <welchvincent@hotm...>
>
> Just a quick question Alex.  As the engine cools with the
> dipstick open, won't that just suck more (possibly moisture
> laden) air back into the oil sump?
>
>
> Vince

Vince, this would happen without opening the oil stick, as it would simply
go into the breather in any case.  I'm sure the dewpoint inside an engine
upon shutdown is higher than FL in the summer.

Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN















________________________________  Message 19  ____________________________________


Time: 03:15:47 PM PST US
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>


> 2/5/2006
>
> Hello Alex, Thanks for your input. I am now going to start
> opening my dipstick cap also.
>
> How much of that "steam" do you suppose is oil vapor instead
> of water vapor?
> I plan to let some of it condense on a cold mirror or glass
> to see how greasy it is.
>
> OC

I believe it is all water vapor, maybe some fuel vapor thrown in.  I don't
believe it is oil, but your cold mirror would be a good test.

Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN















________________________________  Message 20  ____________________________________


Time: 05:38:11 PM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 02/04/06

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>

speedy11@aol.... wrote:

> Is there a 12V to 24V step up device that can be installed to power only those
lights?  I don't want to change the entire system to 24V.

Yes. See:

http://www.surepower.com/conv.html

They make DC-DC converters that will upconvert 12V nominal to 28V to
power 28V loads in various current ratings from 10A - 40A.

--
Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery












________________________________  Message 21  ____________________________________


Time: 06:14:51 PM PST US
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@eart...>


> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly"
> --> <gwbraly@gami...>
>
>
> Keep in mind that if you get the oil hot enough on each
> flight to boil off the water in the oil - - then opening the
> dip stick filler tube appears to accomplish very little.

Definitely off the electric topic, but:

In my case, it certainly does "appear" to be removing moisture when I watch
it.  How much, I don't know, but there is a nice stream coming up for
several minutes.  Some have said that bugs and things might go in there.  Do
those folks check up inside the breather tube before each flight, as that is
always open?  Obviously, I wouldn't leave it open if I park out in the
woods.

In the case of my plane, this steam "chimney" will happen regardless of how
long and hot the oil has been.  The exhaust blow-by is constantly
resupplying the crankcase with moisture.  The oil doesn't have to be at the
boiling point of water (for that altitude) in order to drive the water out,
but it obviously helps.  What is known is that the higher the oil
temperature is above the dew point of the crankcase gasses (I don't know
what this value is), the faster water will be driven out.  As the oil and
engine cools down, any moisture in the crankcase gasses will condense inside
the engine once the engine/oil is at or below the dewpoint of the internal
gasses.

I make and have made no claim as to whether or not any of this matters to
the engine.

Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 712 hours
Maple Grove, MN















________________________________  Message 22  ____________________________________


Time: 08:56:22 PM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine Cowl Temperatures

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>

Alex Peterson wrote:

> I make and have made no claim as to whether or not any of this matters to
> the engine.

Want to take the best care of your engine? Fly regularly, like a couple
of times a week. That will do a LOT more than opening your dipstick. It
means the oil doesn't leave your cam lobes high-and-dry and it means you
get the moisture out before it forms acid with the combustion products.

I have had a couple of engines go beyond TBO by substantial margins. The
O-320 that was in my RV-4 came out of a C-172 that was a trainer and had
been flown almost daily. It had almost 2000 hours on it when it went
into my airplane. I overhauled the engine at 2600 hours even though
compressions and oil consumption were just fine. We couldn't find
anything wrong with the engine when we tore it down.

The engine in my Comanche went almost 2400 hours. I used to fly it to
work every day and the rest of its life it flew mostly long cross
countries (8-10 hours per week).

Treat them well and fly them often. That is how you make them go beyond TBO.

--
Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery












________________________________  Message 23  ____________________________________


Time: 09:08:23 PM PST US
From: Wngsfrmhvn@aol....
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Wngsfrmhvn@aol....

My first post to any list, so hope it works.

I picked up a computer power supply a while back on a whim.  550 watt  Antec,
says it will deliver 24A at 12V, 40A at 5V, and 32A at 3.3V.  Don't  know if
it goes to 13.8 or whether it's even suitable for benchtop use.  It  was $100
on eBay some time ago, prob not the best deal goin but...

Any feedback is appreciated.

Do not archive.

Gus Coleman
RV-8 empennage













________________________________  Message 24  ____________________________________


Time: 09:28:30 PM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloy...>



Wngsfrmhvn@aol.... wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Wngsfrmhvn@aol....
>
> My first post to any list, so hope it works.
>  
> I picked up a computer power supply a while back on a whim.  550 watt  Antec,

> says it will deliver 24A at 12V, 40A at 5V, and 32A at 3.3V.  Don't  know if

> it goes to 13.8 or whether it's even suitable for benchtop use.  It  was $100

> on eBay some time ago, prob not the best deal goin but...

You can use computer supplies but many of them have minimum loads for
all three voltages for them to work properly. That means you have to
draw some current from the 5V and 3.3V outputs in order for the 12V
output to work properly.

And, no, there usually isn't an adjustment that will let you crank up
the voltage to 13.8V.

I have an old Astron 35A linear supply with variable voltage and current
limit. It works wonderfully for this kind of work. You set the current
limit just above what you expect to need and any accidental
short-circuit is protected by the supply's current limit.

--
Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

















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