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a : aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com 19 February 2006 • 3:55PM -0500

AeroElectric-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 02/18/06
by AeroElectric-List Digest Server

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                           AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
                                      ---
                     Total Messages Posted Sat 02/18/06: 35
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------

     1. 02:23 AM - Re: XCOM radio and multiple input sources  (Ron Patterson)
     2. 05:20 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 02/17/06  (Gary Casey)
     3. 05:34 AM - Re: Fused Automotive alternators was Re: You think alternators are safe?   (Charlie Kuss)
     4. 06:03 AM - thermocouple wiring  (Ken)
     5. 07:04 AM - Re: Fused Automotive alternators was Re: You think alternators are safe?   (LarryRobertHelming)
     6. 07:50 AM - KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram  (Michael Hinchcliff)
     7. 09:03 AM - Re: Over-voltage event w/ IR alternator  (Matt Prather)
     8. 09:41 AM - Re: You think alternators are safe?  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 09:57 AM - Special switch  (Carlos Trigo)
    10. 10:06 AM - Re: You think alternators are safe?  (n801bh@netz...)
    11. 10:16 AM - Schematic Symbols - An Easier Way?  (Jerry Grimmonpre)
    12. 10:36 AM - Re: You think alternators are safe?  (Robert Sultzbach)
    13. 11:26 AM - Re: Over-voltage event w/ IR alternator  ()
    14. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: SS firewall penetration  (Richard E. Tasker)
    15. 12:02 PM - Re: Special switch  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    16. 12:05 PM - Re: Over-voltage event w/ IR alternator  (Matt Prather)
    17. 12:42 PM - Re: You think alternators are safe?  (Jim Baker)
    18. 12:50 PM - Re: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram  (Jim Baker)
    19. 01:19 PM - Re: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram  (Michael Hinchcliff)
    20. 01:22 PM - Re: You think alternators are safe?  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    21. 01:30 PM - Re: You think alternators are safe?  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    22. 02:31 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Bad if both alternators on at once?  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    23. 02:31 PM - Re: Crimper for large (AWG 10-6) open barrel terminals  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    24. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: dimmer ckt from Van's  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    25. 02:49 PM - Re: fluid level sensor needed  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    26. 02:49 PM - Re: Temperature compensation, UMA CHT  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    27. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: SS firewall penetration  (sportav8r@aol....)
    28. 03:30 PM - Re: fluid level sensor needed  (Mickey Coggins)
    29. 03:48 PM - Re: Special switch  (Carlos Trigo)
    30. 03:49 PM - Re: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram  (Michael Hinchcliff)
    31. 04:47 PM - Re: fluid level sensor needed  (Larry McFarland)
    32. 06:31 PM - Re: Fused Automotive alternators was Re: You think alternators are safe?   (Charlie Kuss)
    33. 07:00 PM - OAT sensor/meter  (rd2@even...)
    34. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: dimmer ckt from Van's  (Chris & Kellie Hand)
    35. 09:18 PM - Figure 16-2 Errata  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)



________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________


Time: 02:23:53 AM PST US
From: Ron Patterson <scc_ron@yaho...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: XCOM radio and multiple input sources
Cc: Randy Pflanzer <f1rocket@comc...>, Mark Koenig <flyhome@snow...>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Patterson <scc_ron@yaho...>

Dear Aeroelectric list members.
  Attached is communication from me regarding the XCOM and how best to wire it
into a somewhat robust system. Could anyone comment on the problem we are facing
in attempting to properly utilize the rest of the wauipment in the panel with
this radio?
  Ron Patterson

Michael Coates <mcoates@mcp....> wrote:
  Hello Ron, thank you for your e-mail.  

What you are asking is well beyond the ability of the XCOM radio, in fact I doubt
you could find any audio panels that would prioritise incoming signals from
six or seven imputs. You can however bundle all the inputs together by connecting
all the earth's to one point and fitting a 4700 ohm resistor into the positive
line from each source. This would stop each of the units trying to blow
up the other unit, you would get everything coming in through the audio source
together and the best of my knowledge there is no easy way to prioritise or mute
these imputs other than turning the device off.

For example if you are listening to XM radio and didn't want to listen to your
ipod then it would simply turn the ipod music off, if the XM radio was too loud
then you would simply adjust the volume level on the XM radio device. It may
be worth putting your inquiry onto one of the Avionics newsgroups where there
are smarter people on me that may be able to help you with prioritising imputs.
If there is anything else I can help you with please do not hesitate to contact
me again. Kind regards Michael



Ron Patterson wrote:
    Hello Michael,
  Well, I'm into wiring up my RV-4 now and have run into some concrns of how to
integrate the other audio producing avionics into the XCOM intercom. I'd like
to ask some questions if I could so I get this right.
  
  As far as I can tell, there is only one "input" ...Music Audio. Is this so? is
it an input and not an output source?
  
  Should I just wire everything (the Dynon AOA warning, the GPS 396 terrain warning
and XM radio, the DVR 3000i audio checklist and recorder, the Narco NAV 122
with marker beacon and glideslope, plus my IPod) all into this one source???
  
  Wouldn't I need some way to prioritize what audio takes precedence if there are
mult iple signals coming in? Should I have a switch to select each unit individually
as I need it?
  
  I appreciate your help and ideas in working this out.
  Ron Patterson

Michael Coates <mcoates@mcp....> wrote:
  What a load of crap ???   Where do some of these guys get this info ??   If there
is a transmission coming in you can hear that and also have full intercom
usage....  I have only ever once seen a system that cuts out the intercom in
an old sigtronics and it was terrible, in busy airspace you could never talk.

You DONT need another intercom, you WONT have any problems hearing each other when
there is a transmission breaking the radios squelch....  sometimes i wonder
if you should really trust the wiring of your plane to these guys ???

Sounds like he just wants to sell you another intercom ??

Thanks Michael



Ron Patterson wrote:
    Hello Michael,
  
  You may recall I bought an XCOM from you at OSH this past month. I'm asking Approach
Systems to wire up my panel. Cade at AS tells me that radios with an internal
intercom require a switch to use the intercom, and that if the intercom
is in use, no transmissions are heard by the pilot and co-pilot. This doesn't
sound correct based on our discussions, but I'm confused. Could you advise us
both?
  Thanks
  Ron Patterson
  
  XCOM (planned intercom here)
  Digitak
  Altrak
  Garmin 296
  Flightcom DVR 300i
  Dynon D10A with encoder
  MicroAir 2000 SFL Transponder
  
  ***no seperate intercom planned....Cade advises to use a seperate intercom or
cope with limitation listed above****

Michael Coates <mcoates@mcp....> wrote:
  hello ron, yes we are bringing radios etc...   Please catch up with us there,
Thanks.

Ron Patterson wrote:
    

Michael,
  
  Will you be bringing some of the radios and intercoms to OSH this year? I was
hoping to buy direct from you at the show.
  
  Ron
  :
  Hello from LAX... probably in about 2 weeks from now, they
are ahead of schedule at the moment. Thanks Michael

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Ron Patterson
>Subject: Re: Thank you for your valued order
>To: Michael Coates
>
> Michael,
>
> I would like to go forward with my order for the
> XCOM.
>
> when will you be shipping?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Patterson
>
> 20885 Redwood Road #405
>
> Castro Valley, CA 94546 USA


--   With regards,    Michael Coates  Company Director X-Air Australia  Gold Coast, Australia.    mailto:mcoates@mcp....    Main Web Site:  http://www.mcp.com.au  Sting Web Site: http://www.mcp.com.au/sti   ng    X-Air Web Site: http://www.xair.com.au  XCOM Web Site:  http://www.xcom760.com  Sinus Web Site:  http://www.mcp.com.au/sinus  Galaxy Web Site: http://www.galaxysky.cz     "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."      


--   With regards,    Michael Coates  Company Director X-Air Australia  Gold Coast, Australia.    mailto:mcoates@mcp....    Main Web Site:  http://www.mcp.com.au  Sting Web Site: http://www.mcp.com.au/sting  X-Air Web Site: http://www.xair.com.au  XCOM Web Site:  http://www.xcom760.com  Sinus Web Site:  http://www.mcp.com.au/sinus  Galaxy Web Site: http://www.galaxysky.cz     "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."  



--   With regards,    Michael Coates  Company Director X-Air Australia  Gold Coast, Australia.    mailto:mcoates@mcp....    Main Web Site:  http://www.mcp.com.au  Sting Web Site: http://www.mcp.com.au/sting  X-Air Web Site: http://www.xair.com.au  XCOM Web Site:  http://www.xcom760.com  Sinus Web Site:  http://www.mcp.com.au/sinus  Galaxy Web Site: http://www.galaxysky.cz     "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."  














________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________


Time: 05:20:36 AM PST US
From: Gary Casey <glcasey@adel...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 02/17/06

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey <glcasey@adel...>

I think you are over-reacting to the cold junction thing.  True, for  
instrumentation-grade measurements (temperature accuracy to a  
fraction of a degree) it is a good thing to have no metal changes in  
the circuit all the way back to the cold junction.  However, that  
would mean that all the connector terminals would also have to be  
made from like materials.  As long as both wires make the transition  
to another metal at the same temperature the measurement error will  
be small, like a few degrees.  Is the extra accuracy worth the  
effort?  The commercial systems of which I am familiar use copper  
wire for interconnects.  If that's not true I still have time to  
replace all the copper in my system...
Gary Casey

> Hi Bob and all,
>
> After examining carefully the TC probe sold with the UMA CHT, the  
> situation
> appears even worse than I expected. The probe has only 2 ft TC  
> lead  wires,
> and then copper extension wires. So with my in-line engine,  
> cylinder 2 the
> hottest, the "cold" junction will be INSIDE the engine compartment,  
> where
> temperature can rise somewhat higher than the 75F the instrument is
> calibrated for!
>
> So, I bought TC connectors and extension wires from Omega to move  
> the cold
> junction close to the instrument.
> Jean-Pierre Castiello, who designed the A320 brakes temp  
> monitoring, is to
> craft for me an external compensation box based on the same AD594.  
> Input is
> the J extension, output will directly drive the CHT air core movement.
>
> I will let you know the result...
>
> Thanks to all of you for the so precious informations I could  
> gather from
> the list!
>
> Gilles
>














________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________


Time: 05:34:40 AM PST US
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adel...>   You think alternators are safe?
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fused Automotive alternators was Re:   You think
alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adel...>
You think alternators are safe?

At 07:49 PM 2/17/2006, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri"
><capsteve@adel...>
>
>Let it be known that it's not standard practice for any automotive
>manufacturer to protect the alt charging lead or the starter supply wire.
>Well, I'm sure there are a "few" exceptions, but I've been contracted to
>restore more than a few electrical fireballs. Most recently a 2002 Lexus
>gs430 almost met its end when the 4ga starter supply wire met the exhaust
>manifold and began to discharge the battery at an accelerated pace. The
>braided ground to the engine failed, then the alternate ground paths had to
>carry the heavy load. Primarily sensor grounds to the ecm, which then begin
>to overheat within the larger harnesses and begin to fuse to other
>wires/circuits which propagate the process until either the battery melts
>internally and goes critical or discharges.
>I've measured inrush currents to some gm starters at over 230 amp which
>would make fusing difficult, perhaps they figure why bother??
>Alternators typically rated at 100 or 120 amp would be relatively easy to
>fuse, but I don't know why they aren't. perhaps the risks that the
>alternator melts down internally or the 8ga feed to the batt becomes
>compromised is less than the risk that the fuse inline may false and require
>a service dept visit.
>
>Just .02
>
>Steven dinieri
>Rv221rv

Steve,
  I've noted that Ford Expeditions come with a Littelfuse Maxifuse in
the alternator output circuit. It's behind a plastic cover on the
passenger's side of the firewall.
Charlie Kuss
PS Another Ford "fire starter" was their brake fluid pressure sensor
(on the master cylinder) for 1984 to 2000 vehicles. This sensor was
wired battery direct, instead of ignition hot. They can fail at any
time and there have been dozens of auto (and even garage) fires
caused by this. I had one fail will I was working on an Expedition.
It burned the feed wire and scared the hell out me!













________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________


Time: 06:03:42 AM PST US
From: Ken <klehman@albe...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: thermocouple wiring

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albe...>

IF I understand this correctly, I would partly agree with both of you
Gary and Gilles.

I think it is fine to use almost any kind of connector to go from TC
wire to TC wire as long as all parts of the connector are about the same
temperature. So it is fine to use a connector that is entirely forward
of the firewall or entirely behind the firewall and there is no real
need for expensive TC rated connectors. Avoid using a connector as a
firewall pass through as the temperature will be different on each side.

TC extension wire is cheap enough ( I seem to recall $0.65 per foot for
the twisted pair) that I avoided any TC wire to copper wire transitions
but I do have TC wire to TC wire push together spade PIDG joints forward
of the firewall. This is consistant with the recommendations for wiring
the Grand Rapids EIS engine monitor. TC wire is almost certainly cheaper
and easier to install than any kind of extra junction compensation box.
As long as all parts of the transition from TC wire to a connector and
back to TC wire are at the same temperature, we will be fine.

Ken

Gary Casey wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey <glcasey@adel...>
>
>I think you are over-reacting to the cold junction thing.  True, for  
>instrumentation-grade measurements (temperature accuracy to a  
>fraction of a degree) it is a good thing to have no metal changes in  
>the circuit all the way back to the cold junction.  However, that  
>would mean that all the connector terminals would also have to be  
>made from like materials.  As long as both wires make the transition  
>to another metal at the same temperature the measurement error will  
>be small, like a few degrees.  Is the extra accuracy worth the  
>effort?  The commercial systems of which I am familiar use copper  
>wire for interconnects.  If that's not true I still have time to  
>replace all the copper in my system...
>Gary Casey
>
>  
>
>>Hi Bob and all,
>>
>>After examining carefully the TC probe sold with the UMA CHT, the  
>>situation
>>appears even worse than I expected. The probe has only 2 ft TC  
>>lead  wires,
>>and then copper extension wires. So with my in-line engine,  
>>cylinder 2 the
>>hottest, the "cold" junction will be INSIDE the engine compartment,  
>>where
>>temperature can rise somewhat higher than the 75F the instrument is
>>calibrated for!
>>
>>So, I bought TC connectors and extension wires from Omega to move  
>>the cold
>>junction close to the instrument.
>>Jean-Pierre Castiello, who designed the A320 brakes temp  
>>monitoring, is to
>>craft for me an external compensation box based on the same AD594.  
>>Input is
>>the J extension, output will directly drive the CHT air core movement.
>>
>>I will let you know the result...
>>
>>Thanks to all of you for the so precious informations I could  
>>gather from
>>the list!
>>
>>Gilles
>>
>>    
>>














________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________


Time: 07:04:34 AM PST US
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sige...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fused Automotive alternators was Re:   You think
alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sige...>

Maybe the warnings about always disconnecting the negative battery lead is a
good one.  The bad thing about it is on some vehicles you can lose memory on
some devices.  My Boxster for example loses the radio security code and
makes the radio silent.  Only way to fix it is to input the radio code,
which in my case meant a visit to the local Porsche dealer.

Indiana Larry


> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
> <chaztuna@adel...>   You think alternators are safe?
>
> At 07:49 PM 2/17/2006, you wrote:
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri"
>><capsteve@adel...>
>>
>
> Charlie Kuss
> PS Another Ford "fire starter" was their brake fluid pressure sensor
> (on the master cylinder) for 1984 to 2000 vehicles. This sensor was
> wired battery direct, instead of ignition hot. They can fail at any
> time and there have been dozens of auto (and even garage) fires
> caused by this. I had one fail will I was working on an Expedition.
> It burned the feed wire and scared the hell out me!














________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________


Time: 07:50:38 AM PST US
From: "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi@conw...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi@conw...>

Does anybody have a pinout guide or installation diagram for the Bendix/King (Honeywell)
KLN35A GPS?  Bob does not have one on his website.  I want to wire-up
a RS232 port so I can upload database updates.  I don't have a panel mount plug
the factory typically provides with the unit so I want to roll my own.

Thanks,
Michael H.












________________________________  Message 7  _____________________________________


Time: 09:03:58 AM PST US
From: Matt Prather <mprather@spro...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Over-voltage event w/ IR alternator

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather <mprather@spro...>

Hello Mr Lee,

I know it's probably a long shot, but is there any chance that the
failed alternator/regulator could be recovered for further examination?  
I'd pay shipping to have it sent to someone for failure analysis.

I'll extend this offer to anyone else that has an alternator/regulator
failure on an IR system.


Regards,

Matt-


bob@flyb... wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bob@flyb...>
>
>Yesterday morning on the way to church I noticed the alternator idiot light
>come on. A quick check of the volt meter indicated 18 volts.  I was driving
>my son's 1990 Ford F-150 with an IR alternator.  It took me about thirty
>seconds to figure out what to do.  There was not enough time left before
>church to make a forced landing so I kept flying.  I started turning on
>anything electrical to absorb the extra electrons that were smashing the
>battery.  When I remembered the off road driving lights my son recently
>installed and turned them on I was down to 13 volts.  The voltage would
>varry with RPM and as long as I kept everything on and the RPM below 1500 I
>could keep the voltage under 14 volts.  As the truck accelerated away from a
>stop and the transmission was in lower gears the idiot light would come on
>each time the voltage was above 16 volts which happened around 2000 RPM.
>Once in high gear the RPM would settle around 1200 and the voltage would be
>around 13 volts.
>
>In thirty years of driving I would guess that I have had five or six
>alternator failures.  This is the first time it has been a high voltage
>failure.  All of the other times it has been low output failures.
>
>Conclusions:
>  1.  some IR alternators out there will detect an overvoltage event (turn
>on the idiot light) and yet do nothing about it (continue to produce 18
>volts).
>  2.  one event does not make conclusive scinece
>  3.  a check list for OV events would have solved this problem quicker - I
>need a plan for low frequency failures with simple solutions.
>  4.  z-13 would have handled this problem in my airplane as the main
>alternator would have tripped the OV module;  the low voltage tone in my
>earphones would alert me to turn on the standby alternator and flight would
>have continued to destination.
>  5.  what I learned from conclusions 1, 3, and 4 is worth the risk of
>starting another IR alternator e-mail flood.
>  6.  I'm glad I removed the IR regulator from my plane's alternator and
>replaced it with an external unit and OV module.
>
>Just remember, everything I say could be wrong - or right?
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob Lee
>KR2 N52BL
>91% done only 63% to go!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>















________________________________  Message 8  _____________________________________


Time: 09:41:12 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: You think alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 06:50 AM 2/17/2006 -0800, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.c...>
>
>I think this means...Fusable links can start a fire before the fuse
>blows?....:)
>
>Therein lies the problem with 12V power presumably.
>
>Frank
>
>    If this is interpreted to be a requirement, then it cannot
>    be complied with using contemporary I(squared)*R overcurrent
>    detecting devices; I.e., thermal breakers, fat fuses or
>    ANL limiters and particularly fusible links.
>
>    Bob . . .

     This isn't a system voltage or DC versus AC issue. This is
     a hard fact of physics in all power systems. The paragraph
     I cited from AC43-13 completely ignores the "soft fault"
     phenomenon that may occur at any voltage level, any current
     level and in AC or DC systems.

     Example:  A C-90 on short final to Clovis NM about 1990 was
     suddenly stricken with complete disconnect of control in pitch.
     Elevator forces in wheel went to zero. The pilots did a go around
     and managed to land safely with power and pitch trim.

     A teardown revealed a mis-positioned wire bundle under the
     floorboards where a 40A protected wire for co-pilot's windshield
     heat had had been rubbing against the elevator cable for some
     period of time.

     No smoke, no fire, no flickers in the electrical system, no
     trips of the 40A breaker. Over the pre-failure interval,
     megajoules of energy were released in the erosion of steel
     wires (the copper wire was in pretty good shape . . . this
     demonstrates why layers of copper are included in the design
     of safes . . . nearly impossible to penetrate with a cutting
     torch).

     In other instances, it's easy to imagine a 10-cent resistor
     burning up in a radio and making lots of nasty smells in the
     cockpit while failing to open a 5A fuse that protects the
     feed wire to the failed device.

     Bottom line is that ALL thermally actuated protective devices
     (fuses, heater actuated breakers, current limiters, fusible
     links) and even magnetic breakers are incapable of reacting to
     the low-rate, long-duration soft faults that are exemplified
     by the two scenarios I offered above. This illustrates the silliness
     of any designer (or bureaucrat) who believes that AC43-13/11-48
     can be complied with.

     Since the Swiss Air 111 accident, there has been
     a lot work to develop miniature breakers fitted with little
     digital signal processing receivers designed to listen for
     and react to unique signal characteristics of a low current
     electrical arc. These probably won't keep 10-cent resistors
     from smoking but they WOULD have prevented damage to the
     C-90's elevator cable and probably would have prevented the
     Swiss Air 111 incident.

     It's the system designer's goal to UNDERSTAND the technology
     behind products he/she includes in the system and in particular,
     limits that are not articulated in spec sheets.

     Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 9  _____________________________________


Time: 09:57:18 AM PST US
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Special switch

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail...>

I am looking for a DPDT On-On-On switch, like the 2-10 from B&C but in
miniature or sub-miniature version.
Does anybody know a source for it ?

Thanks
Carlos


>
>
>














________________________________  Message 10  ____________________________________


Time: 10:06:23 AM PST US
From: "n801bh@netz..." <n801bh@netz...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: You think alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n801bh@netz..." <n801bh@netz...>


Very well spoken,, as usual.

do not archive

Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com




Very well spoken,, as usual.









do not archive

BenHaas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com















________________________________  Message 11  ____________________________________


Time: 10:16:04 AM PST US
From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.n...>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schematic Symbols - An Easier Way?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.n...>

Hi All,
I've got an idea I'd like to have comments on.  This will require AutoCad or
TurboCad skills which I don't have and not interested in learning.  I first
need the help of someone who can copy Bob's schematic symbols and somehow
place them on a Print program.  It may take a couple pages of Print to
acommodate all the symbols.  Reformat the Print symbols to JPG to reduce the
file size.  Then make these symbols available, with a URL, to those who want
to use them for their schematic.  If this is possible, those of us drawing
schematics could use Paint to create their schematic by simple Copy/Paste
methods.  It may be a little crude but who cares if the schematic portrays
accurately the flow of electrons and the symbols are spot-on accurate!?   I
have no clue if this is possible but I know there are some very sharp and
creative souls on this list who will find a way, if there is one.
Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
















________________________________  Message 12  ____________________________________


Time: 10:36:49 AM PST US
From: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed@yaho...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: You think alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed@yaho...>

Hi Bob,
Are the miniature DSP circuit breakers available at
this time and how much would you expect them to cost?
Bob Sultzbach

--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
wrote:

> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
>
> At 06:50 AM 2/17/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde,
> Frank George (Corvallis)"
> ><frank.hinde@hp.c...>
> >
> >I think this means...Fusable links can start a fire
> before the fuse
> >blows?....:)
> >
> >Therein lies the problem with 12V power presumably.
> >
> >Frank
> >
> >    If this is interpreted to be a requirement,
> then it cannot
> >    be complied with using contemporary
> I(squared)*R overcurrent
> >    detecting devices; I.e., thermal breakers, fat
> fuses or
> >    ANL limiters and particularly fusible links.
> >
> >    Bob . . .
>
>      This isn't a system voltage or DC versus AC
> issue. This is
>      a hard fact of physics in all power systems.
> The paragraph
>      I cited from AC43-13 completely ignores the
> "soft fault"
>      phenomenon that may occur at any voltage level,
> any current
>      level and in AC or DC systems.
>
>      Example:  A C-90 on short final to Clovis NM
> about 1990 was
>      suddenly stricken with complete disconnect of
> control in pitch.
>      Elevator forces in wheel went to zero. The
> pilots did a go around
>      and managed to land safely with power and pitch
> trim.
>
>      A teardown revealed a mis-positioned wire
> bundle under the
>      floorboards where a 40A protected wire for
> co-pilot's windshield
>      heat had had been rubbing against the elevator
> cable for some
>      period of time.
>
>      No smoke, no fire, no flickers in the
> electrical system, no
>      trips of the 40A breaker. Over the pre-failure
> interval,
>      megajoules of energy were released in the
> erosion of steel
>      wires (the copper wire was in pretty good shape
> . . . this
>      demonstrates why layers of copper are included
> in the design
>      of safes . . . nearly impossible to penetrate
> with a cutting
>      torch).
>
>      In other instances, it's easy to imagine a
> 10-cent resistor
>      burning up in a radio and making lots of nasty
> smells in the
>      cockpit while failing to open a 5A fuse that
> protects the
>      feed wire to the failed device.
>
>      Bottom line is that ALL thermally actuated
> protective devices
>      (fuses, heater actuated breakers, current
> limiters, fusible
>      links) and even magnetic breakers are incapable
> of reacting to
>      the low-rate, long-duration soft faults that
> are exemplified
>      by the two scenarios I offered above. This
> illustrates the silliness
>      of any designer (or bureaucrat) who believes
> that AC43-13/11-48
>      can be complied with.
>
>      Since the Swiss Air 111 accident, there has
> been
>      a lot work to develop miniature breakers fitted
> with little
>      digital signal processing receivers designed to
> listen for
>      and react to unique signal characteristics of a
> low current
>      electrical arc. These probably won't keep
> 10-cent resistors
>      from smoking but they WOULD have prevented
> damage to the
>      C-90's elevator cable and probably would have
> prevented the
>      Swiss Air 111 incident.
>
>      It's the system designer's goal to UNDERSTAND
> the technology
>      behind products he/she includes in the system
> and in particular,
>      limits that are not articulated in spec sheets.
>
>      Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>
>
>
>














________________________________  Message 13  ____________________________________


Time: 11:26:45 AM PST US
From: <bob@flyb...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Over-voltage event w/ IR alternator

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bob@flyb...>

Matt Prather wrote:

"... is there any chance that the
failed alternator/regulator could be recovered for further examination?"

As a student of the AeroElectirc Connection, I know that the repeatable
experiment and it's resulting data is the only way to understanding.
Unfortunately I have misplaced my DVM and have not been able to find it.
The truck is parked in the barn waiting for me to fix it.  Until I can find
my DVM and do some experiments I'm happy to let it sit there.

I will supply feedback when it is available.  As far as testing the
alternator, it depends the core charge associated with the replacement.

Regards,

Bob Lee
KR2 N52BL
91% done only 63% to go!













________________________________  Message 14  ____________________________________


Time: 11:26:45 AM PST US
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@opto...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: SS firewall penetration

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@opto...>

Heck, McMaster Carr has it in sizes up to 4" diameter for "standard"
grade and up to 3" for "aerospace" grade.

See  www.mcmaster.com  , and enter 737 in the search window and it will
go to page 737 where the sleeve is shown about half way down.

Lots cheaper than www.racerpartswholesale.com, too.

Dick Tasker

sportav8r@aol.... wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol....
>
>Good resource; thanks!
>
>-Bill
>
>do not archive
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Glaeser, Dennis A <dennis.glaeser@eds....>
>To: AeroElectric-List@matr...
>Sent: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:02:16 -0500
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SS firewall penetration
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A"
><dennis.glaeser@eds....>
>
>--------------------------------
>Is there firesleeve available to work with the Home Depot 1.5" SS grab
>bar for roll-your-own firewall penetrations? If so, what "hose size" do
>I look for to equal 1.5" ID or OD? I'm getting the feeling after
>bringing home a 1.5" grab bar that I should have ordered the 1.25" stuff
>from McMaster-Carr. Even so, I'm still not sure what stock # of
>firesleeve will fit this. Any tips? Thanks. I have the itumescent caulk
>from the Aviation department at Lowe's. That was the easy part.
>-Bill B
>--------------------------------
>
>Bill,
>
>Check out this website: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/aero6.htm
>They have ID's listed up to 1.5"
>
>Dennis Glaeser
>7A Fuselage
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message.  We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--













________________________________  Message 15  ____________________________________


Time: 12:02:29 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Special switch

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 05:52 PM 2/18/2006 +0000, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo"
><trigo@mail...>
>
>I am looking for a DPDT On-On-On switch, like the 2-10 from B&C but in
>miniature or sub-miniature version.
>Does anybody know a source for it ?

   Sure. This would be a C&K 7211SYZQE available from Digikey.
   The descriptors on page

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1385.pdf

   are correct. Descriptors in the order building page
   at

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=15385&Site=US&Cat=34407579

   are hosed up. It doesn't have and LED, is not DP4T,
   doesn't mount in a 15 x 5.5 mm hole, not rated for 582 Amps
   and is not an On-Off-On switch . . . other than all
   that confusion, the part number is correct for a DP3T,
   On-On-On progressive transfer switch. You can confirm this
   from the C&K catalog second illustration from the top on
   page 2 of:

http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/C%26K%20Components/Web%20Data/7000%20Series.pdf

    Bob . . .

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >
      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >
      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >
      < with experiment.                                      >
      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >













________________________________  Message 16  ____________________________________


Time: 12:05:54 PM PST US
From: Matt Prather <mprather@spro...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Over-voltage event w/ IR alternator

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather <mprather@spro...>

Great!

I am interested to hear what you find.

I'll cover the core charge if need be.


Regards,

Matt-


bob@flyb... wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bob@flyb...>
>
>Matt Prather wrote:
>
>"... is there any chance that the
>failed alternator/regulator could be recovered for further examination?"
>
>As a student of the AeroElectirc Connection, I know that the repeatable
>experiment and it's resulting data is the only way to understanding.
>Unfortunately I have misplaced my DVM and have not been able to find it.
>The truck is parked in the barn waiting for me to fix it.  Until I can find
>my DVM and do some experiments I'm happy to let it sit there.
>
>I will supply feedback when it is available.  As far as testing the
>alternator, it depends the core charge associated with the replacement.
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob Lee
>KR2 N52BL
>91% done only 63% to go!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>















________________________________  Message 17  ____________________________________


Time: 12:42:20 PM PST US
From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@tele...>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: You think alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@tele...>

>      A teardown revealed a mis-positioned wire bundle under the
>      floorboards where a 40A protected wire for co-pilot's windshield
>      heat had had been rubbing against the elevator cable for some
>      period of time.
>
>      No smoke, no fire, no flickers in the electrical system, no
>      trips of the 40A breaker.

Allow me to publicly display my ignorance.....isn't there some form of
GFI that would sense the difference  between the hot and ground
and trip the circuit? I know the stated standard for UL is 5ma (like
that applies here!)  so that wouldn't work but, say, some larger level
of leakage detection? Or would this be a trippin' son-of-a-gun with all
the impulse loads we generate?

Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV,  492TC
Elmore City, OK













________________________________  Message 18  ____________________________________


Time: 12:50:51 PM PST US
From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@tele...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@tele...>

> Does anybody have a pinout guide or installation diagram for the
> Bendix/King (Honeywell) KLN35A GPS?  Bob does not have one
on his
> website.  I want to wire-up a RS232 port so I can upload database
> updates.  I don't have a panel mount plug the factory typically
> provides with the unit so I want to roll my own.

Attached is a copy of the sheet they sent to me for my KLN90. Has
the 135A on it as well.....Here ya go!


Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV,  492TC
Elmore City, OK


The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  Gps Dataloader cable.tif
     Date:  11 Aug 2004, 22:12
     Size:  14880 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown

Mr. Baker,
The jack that we use is provided in the installation kit for the KLN 90's.  The
part number for the Nexus jack is
033-00230-0000.  It is a Nexus jack, like what is used in the military style microphones.
Our cable we offer has a
Nexus plug on one end and a 9 pin serial connector on the other.  The part number
of the cable is 050-03213-0000.

Attached is the drawing for the cable and jack.

The cable can be ordered from Wingman Services at 800-247-0230.

-----Original Message-----
From: Turner, Marti On Behalf Of BendixKingCSS
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:55 PM
Subject: FW: KLN90 data loader port.....


Can you please respond to this customer.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Baker [mailto:jlbaker@tele...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:27 PM
Subject: KLN90 data loader port.....


Which pins control the data loader port (data IN/OUT/GND) and
what is the  typical port jack used?

Thanks,

Jim Baker
492TC
580-788-2779
J.Baker
















________________________________  Message 19  ____________________________________


Time: 01:19:10 PM PST US
From: "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi@conw...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi@conw...>

Thanks for the diagram Jim!  It's very helpful.  ...now the plot thickens
with two questions from the village idiot:

1.) Your diagram shows the KLN35A with a "P1" connector.  I believe P1
connector has pins 1-22 on one row and pins A-Z on the other.  I believe my
unit has a P4001 connector with pins 1-15 on one row and pins A-S on the
other.  Are my assumptions are correct and if so, are you aware of a similar
drawing showing the KLN35A with a P4001 connector?
2.)  How are the alphabetic rows on the connectors arranged since they don't
line up with their order from their numbered counterparts?  For example, on
the P1, why are pins 22 and Z adjacent instead of 22 and V? On the P4001,
pins 15 and S are adjacent instead of 15 and O?  Make sense?

Thanks,
Michael H.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@tele...>
<aeroelectric-list@matr...>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram


>> Does anybody have a pinout guide or installation diagram for the
>> Bendix/King (Honeywell) KLN35A GPS?  Bob does not have one
> on his
>> website.  I want to wire-up a RS232 port so I can upload database
>> updates.  I don't have a panel mount plug the factory typically
>> provides with the unit so I want to roll my own.
>
> Attached is a copy of the sheet they sent to me for my KLN90. Has
> the 135A on it as well.....Here ya go!
>
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> '71 SV,  492TC
> Elmore City, OK
>
>




> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>   ---- File information -----------
>     File:  Gps Dataloader cable.tif
>     Date:  11 Aug 2004, 22:12
>     Size:  14880 bytes.
>     Type:  Unknown
>




> Mr. Baker,
> The jack that we use is provided in the installation kit for the KLN 90's.
> The part number for the Nexus jack is
> 033-00230-0000.  It is a Nexus jack, like what is used in the military
> style microphones.  Our cable we offer has a
> Nexus plug on one end and a 9 pin serial connector on the other.  The part
> number of the cable is 050-03213-0000.
>
> Attached is the drawing for the cable and jack.
>
> The cable can be ordered from Wingman Services at 800-247-0230.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Turner, Marti On Behalf Of BendixKingCSS
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:55 PM
> To: Demaree, Chuck
> Subject: FW: KLN90 data loader port.....
>
>
> Can you please respond to this customer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Baker [mailto:jlbaker@tele...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:27 PM
> To: bendix.kingCSS@hone...
> Subject: KLN90 data loader port.....
>
>
> Which pins control the data loader port (data IN/OUT/GND) and
> what is the  typical port jack used?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Baker
> 492TC
> 580-788-2779
> J.Baker
>
>
>













________________________________  Message 20  ____________________________________


Time: 01:22:18 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: You think alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 02:38 PM 2/18/2006 -0600, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@tele...>
>
> >      A teardown revealed a mis-positioned wire bundle under the
> >      floorboards where a 40A protected wire for co-pilot's windshield
> >      heat had had been rubbing against the elevator cable for some
> >      period of time.
> >
> >      No smoke, no fire, no flickers in the electrical system, no
> >      trips of the 40A breaker.
>
>Allow me to publicly display my ignorance.....isn't there some form of
>GFI that would sense the difference  between the hot and ground
>and trip the circuit? I know the stated standard for UL is 5ma (like
>that applies here!)  so that wouldn't work but, say, some larger level
>of leakage detection? Or would this be a trippin' son-of-a-gun with all
>the impulse loads we generate?

     There are ground fault detection devices for DC systems but
     they're complex and of limited usefulness. We use them on
     major feeders in aircraft but they would never be used in
     situations like the soft faulted windshield heater line
     I cited.

     Some components of the system are installed with attention
     to detail that makes over load and ground fault protection
     unnecessary. In the case of the windshield heater wire, good
     practice was ignored in the restoration of the airplane to
     proper configuration after a maintenance event. By the way,
     I came across this incident during a search of accident records
     at RAC looking for relative numbers of electrical systems issues
     that started a chain of events leading to an accident. They
     are exceedingly rare and in this case, didn't result in
     damage to airplane or occupants. It was an interesting data
     point but in no way intended to raise concerns on anyone's
     part that we should be looking for the next greatest advancement
     in aircraft safety. Hmmmm . . . I'd better not say that too
     loud. The FAA just might pick that up as the the next cause du jour.


     Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 21  ____________________________________


Time: 01:30:12 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: You think alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 10:35 AM 2/18/2006 -0800, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed@yaho...>
>
>Hi Bob,
>Are the miniature DSP circuit breakers available at
>this time and how much would you expect them to cost?
>Bob Sultzbach

    Not that I'm aware of. But even if they were, I wouldn't
    recommend them. The fuseblock delivers the highest cost-
    benefit ratio for wire protection we can buy.

    The people who NEED them are the poor saps that bought
    air transport class aircraft wired with Kapton insulated
    wire. I knew how bad this stuff was when I had the electrical/
    avionics group on the GP-180 25 years ago. We opted for Tefzel
    back then as did all the Wichita OEM's.

    The big airplanes cannot be rewired. Further, the amount of
    lint (almost explosive) and other trash that builds around
    the innards of old airplanes makes arc-tracking in Kapton
    wiring a much more serious issue. The "fix" is to replace
    breakers with devices that will detect arcing soft failures
    in the wires. This is not a concern for OBAM aircraft where
    builders have installed the best . . .  Tefzel.

    Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 22  ____________________________________


Time: 02:31:31 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>   once?
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Bad if both alternators on at     once?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
once?

At 06:52 PM 2/17/2006 -0500, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Goguen, Jon"
><Jon.Goguen@umas...>
>
>Bob,
>
>Just to clarify.  Scott's original question concerned Z-13/8.  If he were
>to use the BC-1 regulator for his main alternator rather than the specfied
>generic Ford, would he avoid OV cross-talk with an SD-8 using the standard
>OV protection scheme?

   The SB-1 is for use as a standby alternator controller where the
   smaller (SD-20) is running 100% of the time and tied to the
   same bus structure as the main alternator (Figure Z-12). The
   DIFFERENCE between the LR-3 and the SB-1 is that the low voltage
   warning has been replaced with circuitry to use a hall-effect sensor
   on the SD-20's b-lead to detect when it is delivering power (main
   alternator off line) and when overloaded (light flashes).

   It's not intended for use as a stand-alone alternator operation
   like any of the other z-figures.

   Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 23  ____________________________________


Time: 02:31:31 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>   barrel terminals
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Crimper for large (AWG 10-6) open     barrel terminals

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
barrel terminals

At 07:04 PM 2/17/2006 -0500, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Goguen, Jon"
><Jon.Goguen@umas...>
>
>Yes, they're fast-on style.  They fit the high-current terminals on 70 amp
>automotive relays.
>
>Jon

   What system, how much current and what wire sizes do you
   anticipate running through these terminals?

   Bob . . .



>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matr... on behalf of Robert L.
>Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Thu 2/16/2006 7:15 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matr...
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimper for large (AWG 10-6) open   barrel
>terminals
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox....>   barrel terminals
>
>At 04:09 PM 2/16/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen
> <jon.goguen@umas...>
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Looking for a crimper that will handle large open barrel female
> >terminals that fit 0.375" quck-connect males.  These are the only 0.375
> >quick connect females I have been able to find.  I could use closed
> >barrel insulated or uninsulated females if anybody can tell me where to
> >get them.
>
>     Are these a "fast-on" style connector? For 6AWG wire?
>     Where do you plan to use them?
>
>     Bob . . .
>
>
>--
>
>


        Bob . . .


      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >
      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >
      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >
      < with experiment.                                      >
      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >













________________________________  Message 24  ____________________________________


Time: 02:43:59 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: dimmer ckt from Van's

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 10:32 PM 2/17/2006 -0800, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand"
><ckhand@eart...>

   <snip>


>One thing I don't like about these boards is the terminal block connecting
>method - just stick a wire into the block and mash the wire down with the
>little screw.   Seems like kind of a crude/weak method after all the
>crimped and soldered connecters we so carefully put together....

    Are these the terminals strips like those shown in:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Screw_Clamp_Terminal_Strips.jpg

    The first time I saw those on aircraft hardware, I think
    it was on the Vision Microsystems VM1000 some years ago
    and more recently on the product illustrated in the photo
    above.

    If these are the same devices you're seeing for attaching
    wires . . . your concerns are well founded. We go to a lot
    of trouble to get gas tight joints to wires and to provide
    insulation support adjacent to the joint. These are the prime
    directives of environmentally robust joints. These terminal
    strips do neither.

    Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 25  ____________________________________


Time: 02:49:47 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fluid level sensor needed

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 07:27 PM 2/16/2006 +0100, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8....>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm looking for a fluid level sensor that I
>will use in my Subaru engine cooling system.
>
>I've found lots of on/off switches that will
>tell me if there is coolant there or not, but
>does anyone know of a reasonably priced sensor
>that will give me analog output over a range
>of values?  Reasonably priced means to me
>something less than about $250.

   Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
   a low level warning?

   Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 26  ____________________________________


Time: 02:49:47 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Temperature compensation, UMA CHT

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

At 03:12 PM 2/17/2006 +0100, you wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles Tatry"
><gilles.tatry@wana...>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>After examining carefully the TC probe sold with the UMA CHT, the situation
>appears even worse than I expected. The probe has only 2 ft TC lead  wires,
>and then copper extension wires. So with my in-line engine, cylinder 2 the
>hottest, the "cold" junction will be INSIDE the engine compartment, where
>temperature can rise somewhat higher than the 75F the instrument is
>calibrated for!
>
>So, I bought TC connectors and extension wires from Omega to move the cold
>junction close to the instrument.
>Jean-Pierre Castiello, who designed the A320 brakes temp monitoring, is to
>craft for me an external compensation box based on the same AD594. Input is
>the J extension, output will directly drive the CHT air core movement.
>
>I will let you know the result...
>
>Thanks to all of you for the so precious informations I could gather from
>the list!


   Gilles. I've not forgotten our earlier conversation about a
   temperature compensated driver for the UMA T/C driven gages.
   You need to hook a resistor in series with a variable power
   supply and tell me how much CURRENT through the instrument
   and VOLTAGE across the instrument to get 0 to 100%
   of full scale reading and at 3 to 5 points between 0 and 100%.

   I understand these are powered instruments. I'll need to know
   what resistance is measured between the signal input pins of
   the instrument and power ground.

   I've got a design for a thermocouple signal conditioner driving
   a constant current generator that will provide the adjustability
   you need for calibrating along with cold-junction compensation.

   Bob . . .













________________________________  Message 27  ____________________________________


Time: 02:53:43 PM PST US
From: sportav8r@aol....
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: SS firewall penetration

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol....

Thanks- that's a good resource.  I have to order my grab bar from them anyway,
most likely.

do not archive

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard E. Tasker <retasker@opto...>
Sent: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: SS firewall penetration


--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker"
<retasker@opto...>

Heck, McMaster Carr has it in sizes up to 4" diameter for "standard"
grade and up to 3" for "aerospace" grade.

See  www.mcmaster.com  , and enter 737 in the search window and it will
go to page 737 where the sleeve is shown about half way down.

Lots cheaper than www.racerpartswholesale.com, too.

Dick Tasker

sportav8r@aol.... wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol....
>
>Good resource; thanks!
>
>-Bill
>
>do not archive
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Glaeser, Dennis A <dennis.glaeser@eds....>
>To: AeroElectric-List@matr...
>Sent: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:02:16 -0500
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SS firewall penetration
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A"
><dennis.glaeser@eds....>
>
>--------------------------------
>Is there firesleeve available to work with the Home Depot 1.5" SS grab
>bar for roll-your-own firewall penetrations? If so, what "hose size" do
>I look for to equal 1.5" ID or OD? I'm getting the feeling after
>bringing home a 1.5" grab bar that I should have ordered the 1.25" stuff
>from McMaster-Carr. Even so, I'm still not sure what stock # of
>firesleeve will fit this. Any tips? Thanks. I have the itumescent caulk
>from the Aviation department at Lowe's. That was the easy part.
>-Bill B
>--------------------------------
>
>Bill,
>
>Check out this website: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/aero6.htm
>They have ID's listed up to 1.5"
>
>Dennis Glaeser
>7A Fuselage
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message.  We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--























________________________________  Message 28  ____________________________________


Time: 03:30:23 PM PST US
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8....>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fluid level sensor needed

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8....>

>    Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
>    a low level warning?

My goal is to know when it is low, but I don't
really trust an "idiot light" solution, which
is why I'd like some idea of the progression
from "ok" to "too low".

My fallback position is to install two on/off
type sensors at different levels, but that's
getting kind of kludgey.

Thanks for any hints!

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


do not archive












________________________________  Message 29  ____________________________________


Time: 03:48:41 PM PST US
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Special switch

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail...>

Thanks Bob

Already ordered it

Carlos


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Special switch


> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox....>
>
> At 05:52 PM 2/18/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo"
>><trigo@mail...>
>>
>>I am looking for a DPDT On-On-On switch, like the 2-10 from B&C but in
>>miniature or sub-miniature version.
>>Does anybody know a source for it ?
>
>   Sure. This would be a C&K 7211SYZQE available from Digikey.
>   The descriptors on page
>
> http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1385.pdf
>
>   are correct. Descriptors in the order building page
>   at
>
> http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=15385&Site=US&Cat=34407579
>
>   are hosed up. It doesn't have and LED, is not DP4T,
>   doesn't mount in a 15 x 5.5 mm hole, not rated for 582 Amps
>   and is not an On-Off-On switch . . . other than all
>   that confusion, the part number is correct for a DP3T,
>   On-On-On progressive transfer switch. You can confirm this
>   from the C&K catalog second illustration from the top on
>   page 2 of:
>
> http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/C%26K%20Components/Web%20Data/7000%20Series.pdf
>
>    Bob . . .
>
>      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
>      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >
>      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >
>      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >
>      < with experiment.                                      >
>      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >
>
>














________________________________  Message 30  ____________________________________


Time: 03:49:51 PM PST US
From: "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi@conw...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi@conw...>

Thanks for the suggestions Jim.  Unfortunately, I was not able to find any information
about the pin layouts on the LoneStar Aviation site, however; they do
have a nifty product.

I checked out the pin layouts at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KLX135.pdf. It appears the KLX 135 uses both the P1 and P4001 connectors and the P4001 pins K, H, and J do not correspond to the data loader RS232 OUT, ground and RS232 IN respectively.  The dataloader pins are on the P1 connector which is non-existent on the KLN 35A.  The difference between my unit and the KLX 135 is that the KLX 135 has a built in Comm radio, where my unit is straight VFR GPS unit without Comm, hence; fewer connectors are provided.

The P4001 pin layout for the my unit continues to be a mystery....
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jim Baker
  To: Michael Hinchcliff
  Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 5:03 PM
  Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KLN35A Pin/Installation Diagram


  > 1.) Your diagram shows the KLN35A with a "P1" connector.  I believe P1
  > connector has pins 1-22 on one row and pins A-Z on the other.  I
  > believe my unit has a P4001 connector with pins 1-15 on one row and
  > pins A-S on the other.  Are my assumptions are correct and if so, are
  > you aware of a similar drawing showing the KLN35A with a P4001
  > connector?


  I wasn't able to find the 135 data on connectors. Check out....


  http://tinyurl.com/83mhd



  The docking station uses the same pinout cable for the KLN90 and KLN135 so if
you can find either......




  2.)  How are the alphabetic rows on the connectors arranged
  > since they don't line up with their order from their numbered
  > counterparts?  For example, on the P1, why are pins 22 and Z adjacent
  > instead of 22 and V? On the P4001, pins 15 and S are adjacent instead
  > of 15 and O?  Make sense?


  http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KLX135.pdf


  Try the above for pinout definitions.....


  Jim Baker
  580.788.2779
  '71 SV,  492TC
  Elmore City, OK












________________________________  Message 31  ____________________________________


Time: 04:47:12 PM PST US
From: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qcon...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fluid level sensor needed

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qcon...>

Bob,
I use a pressure sensor in a threaded boss in a metal hose connection.
The warning is provided by
my Grand Rapids Technologies E I S.  It's alarm is set at a minimum 4
psi.  You loose water pressure
you know just as well that you don't have enough water to continue much
farther.  A low fluid level would
not necessarily save your engine if it were placed incorrectly and might
be excess mechanics for what
you're trying to do.  A pressure switch is smaller and simpler to do.

Larry McFarland - 601hds with Stratus Subaru

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
>
>At 07:27 PM 2/16/2006 +0100, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>><mick-matronics@rv8....>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'm looking for a fluid level sensor that I
>>will use in my Subaru engine cooling system.
>>
>>I've found lots of on/off switches that will
>>tell me if there is coolant there or not, but
>>does anyone know of a reasonably priced sensor
>>that will give me analog output over a range
>>of values?  Reasonably priced means to me
>>something less than about $250.
>>    
>>
>   Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
>   a low level warning?
>
>   Bob . . .
>
>
>  
>













________________________________  Message 32  ____________________________________


Time: 06:31:23 PM PST US
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adel...>   You think alternators are safe?
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fused Automotive alternators was Re:     You think
alternators are safe?

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adel...>
You think alternators are safe?

Larry,
  I work on late model cars of all makes for a living. Disconnecting
the battery also erases all the adaptive learning strategies that the
engine computer has made. This feature allows the computer to
actually "tune" the engine as you drive it. It can compensate for
(within limits) things like a dirty fuel injector, worn spark plugs
and other items. Disconnecting the battery gives the computer a case
of "amnesia". It usually takes about 2-5 miles for the computer to
"re-learn" these strategies.
  This isn't a problem on a car with an engine in reasonably good
shape. However, it can be a real disaster on an old, worn out oil
burner. It may run so badly that the owner can't wait for the 500 to
1000 mile re-learn period. :-(
  After performing "drivability" repairs, we erase this memory, so
that the car doesn't continue previous bad habits, like poor fuel
economy, learned while a sensor or other item was malfunctioning.
Charlie Kuss
do not archive


>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming"
><lhelming@sige...>
>
>Maybe the warnings about always disconnecting the negative battery lead is a
>good one.  The bad thing about it is on some vehicles you can lose memory on
>some devices.  My Boxster for example loses the radio security code and
>makes the radio silent.  Only way to fix it is to input the radio code,
>which in my case meant a visit to the local Porsche dealer.
>
>Indiana Larry
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
> > <chaztuna@adel...>   You think alternators are safe?
> >
> > At 07:49 PM 2/17/2006, you wrote:
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri"
> >><capsteve@adel...>
> >>
> >
> > Charlie Kuss
> > PS Another Ford "fire starter" was their brake fluid pressure sensor
> > (on the master cylinder) for 1984 to 2000 vehicles. This sensor was
> > wired battery direct, instead of ignition hot. They can fail at any
> > time and there have been dozens of auto (and even garage) fires
> > caused by this. I had one fail will I was working on an Expedition.
> > It burned the feed wire and scared the hell out me!
>
>













________________________________  Message 33  ____________________________________


Time: 07:00:30 PM PST US
From: rd2@even...
Subject: AeroElectric-List: OAT sensor/meter

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@even...

Has anyone come across a reliable Outside Air Temp sensor/meter, preferably
LED display, dimmable, easy to install on/in the panel?

Rumen

P.S. Come to talk about this, I wonder if any of the fuel totalizers with
Aux input would accommodate such a sensor and where is it to be found and
how to connect it. (the Aux input of Electronics International's fuel
totalizer can accommodate Voltage or CGT)














________________________________  Message 34  ____________________________________


Time: 07:39:04 PM PST US
From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand@eart...>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: dimmer ckt from Van's

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand@eart...>

Yes, that's exactly what I've got on the dimmer ckt board.
I noticed that's also the style of connector used for the CHT and EGT sensor
wires in the "brain box" for my IK2000 engine monitor.

Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: dimmer ckt from Van's


> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox....>
>
> At 10:32 PM 2/17/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand"
>><ckhand@eart...>
>
>   <snip>
>
>
>>One thing I don't like about these boards is the terminal block connecting
>>method - just stick a wire into the block and mash the wire down with the
>>little screw.   Seems like kind of a crude/weak method after all the
>>crimped and soldered connecters we so carefully put together....
>
>    Are these the terminals strips like those shown in:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Screw_Clamp_Terminal_Strips.jpg
>
>    The first time I saw those on aircraft hardware, I think
>    it was on the Vision Microsystems VM1000 some years ago
>    and more recently on the product illustrated in the photo
>    above.
>
>    If these are the same devices you're seeing for attaching
>    wires . . . your concerns are well founded. We go to a lot
>    of trouble to get gas tight joints to wires and to provide
>    insulation support adjacent to the joint. These are the prime
>    directives of environmentally robust joints. These terminal
>    strips do neither.
>
>    Bob . . .
>
>
>














________________________________  Message 35  ____________________________________


Time: 09:18:22 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Figure 16-2 Errata

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox....>

A number of eagle eyed readers pointed out where I stubbed my toe
on the crafting of Figure 16-2 in the 'Connection. A properly
crafted replacement may be downloaded from:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/Figure_16-2A_Errata.pdf


        Bob . . .


      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >
      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >
      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >
      < with experiment.                                      >
      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >


















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