--- In bible_prophecy-l@yaho..., Cheri <bear1670@...> wrote:

>
> I see the whole world meaning just that, all nations.  Due to technology, our world is smaller than ever with instant transactions from one country to another.

Cheri,

What about the people groups out of contact with civilization in places like the Congo, Indonesia, or the Amazon jungle?  Do you think they will receive the mark of the beast?  The scripture says he causes "all" to receive the mark, and you will need it to buy and sell, but many of those jungle people will never go to a store or even use money.  Also, we know not everyone will receive it.  You have the trib saints who refuse it, and there will probably be non-Christian conscientious objectors as well.  Everyone does not receive it.

You wrote:

  We can talk face to face through the Internet in real time.  I remember during the Vietnam era, we waited weeks for mail to get back and forth, but now we just need a computer and we have immediate communication.

...........

I'm guessing there are still Montenards living up in the Vietnam mountains who are still not connected to the internet.

Paul spoke of the gospel message going out to the whole world in his day.  Romams 1:8,  "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

You have to put qualifiers on what that whole world was.  It's speaking of the Roman Empire, not the entire planet.

If we read Rev. 13 at face value when it says "all" will take the mark, which would mean completely everyone, then we have a contradiction because I don't think it's possible for everyone to receive it, nor do I believe that everyone in these deepest darkest reaches of the planet will be worshipping the beast.   And the way to clear up such a contradiction is to see how the Bible uses "all" or "every," like I tried to do in my post you are replying to, but you didn't address any of the examples I gave.

You wrote:

I firmly believe when God says a mark, it will be in allegiance to this world leader.  There will be no mistaking who people are following when they take the mark, it will not be God.
>
> Cheri

I agree.  Those who take the mark are supporting the beast in his system of commerce.  They are aligning themselves with the beast.

Daniel





>
>
>
> On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:23 AM, "Daniel" <jayjeti@...> wrote:
>
> > Joel,
> >
> > I don't know about the www being 666. Hebrew uses letter/number equvalents. The "waw" which has a "W" sound is used for the number 6. So, www is 666 if you translate that into the Hebrew letter/number system. But I can't make sense of how that works in a mark used for buying and selling.
> >
> > In all seven occurances of the mark of the beast, we find the image mentioned in it's immediate context. Neither the image nor the mark ever appear independent of one another. So, they are connected in some way.
> >
> > I suspect the image that can speak might be symbolizing the computer network necessary for the mark to complete it's transactions. Computers communicate which is best symbolized by speech. In times past man has made man made objects out of stone and wood, but computers are the first man made object that can actually communicate (speak). So, I wonder if the image that can speak is the computer network. Since the mark and the image always occur in tandem, I think both are involved in making transactions.
> >
> > So, I suppose you could say that the world wide web (www/666) could be how we should view that, but I don't about that. I would like to see something more concrete.
> >
> > Yes, I have commented that "all" doesn't necessarily mean completely all in scripture, but can be all of a whole, such as when Paul said the goepel message had gone out to the whole world in his day. Of course that was limited to the Roman Empire. Nebuchadnezzar is said to rule all the earth, and the same is said for other empires in Daniel, but we know that it had limitations.
> >
> > We can't always compare how we strictly use a word in English to how scripture uses it. In Zech. 14:16-19 it says that "everyone" will come up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, but then immediately talks about the punishment of those who do not.
> >
> > We read in passages like Zech. 14 or Rev. 16 that "all" the nations of the earth will march against Israel. Will Costa Rica be there? They don't even have an army. I don't think it's necessary to always strictly read the word all like we use it in English.
> >
> > And of course peoples like the Indians deep in the Amazon jungle will likely not be taking the mark of the beast to buy and sell. The scripture says that he causes "all" to take the mark, but we know from scripture that some are killed for refusing to take it, and there must be tribes deep in jungles who are not even offered it. So, not everyone takes it.
> >
> > So, if we look at biblical uses of all or every it's not always the strict interpretation we put on it.
> >
> > I think the mark will begin in Europe and spread from there. Just like Rome was not built in a day, I see this system beginning in Europe and spreading. Scripture doesn't say how quickly the world comes under his power, which seems to center around his control of the world's economies. Nations will probably fall in line due to how he can effect their economies.
> >
> > I was thinking the same thing you mentioned, that even in less developed areas of the world a lot of people have cell phones. Even Col. Khadafi, when he was shown alive shortly before he died, seemed to have been recorded on someone's cell phone.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > --- In bible_prophecy-l@yaho..., Portents <portents2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Daniel,
> > >
> > > That's very interesting. I don't know if it was here on BP_L or on
> > > another forum, but a writer was making an argument (and I didn't
> > > really follow the logic of it) that the mark of the beast - 666 -
> > > could be translated as www and he concluded that this meant the
> > > internet itself was the mark and that eventually no one will be able
> > > to buy or sell who is not on the network. I'm not sure I buy that
> > > argument. The mark is, scripturally speaking, the name or the number
> > > of the beast, it's a very personal idea tied to a real person, not an
> > > abstract idea, like a computer network. Still, I had to give the guy
> > > credit for an interesting spin on the mark and far more compelling
> > > than other ideas that people have (social security numbers, barcodes,
> > > etc.) over the years.
> > >
> > > And to return this to your example of mobile payment systems, we have
> > > talked before about the infrastructure needed to implement the mark
> > > and whether the mark is really global in scope.
> > >
> > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you making the argument some
> > > time back that "all" doesn't' necessarily mean all in a global sense
> > > in the context of a truly universal system that covers all people
> > > since we recognize that the time required for the entire world to
> > > adopt the same standard would mean that it would take another century
> > > or more for the mark to be implemented. It would be enough for it to
> > > cover only the modern industrialized world because that would include
> > > the "world" of the focal point of prophecy, namely Israel. The rest of
> > > the world, those lawless places the still use cash or barter for goods
> > > and services, would be untouched by the mark just as they are passed
> > > by the use of debit cards or credit cards.
> > >
> > > Even though I was troubled by the fast and loose translation of "all"
> > > in this context as something other than the plain meaning of the word
> > > I accepted the basic idea. Like you, I've done a fair bit of
> > > traveling, both to parts of the world more advanced than the U.S. and
> > > less advanced. And to those of you shocked at the "more advanced"
> > > part, I'm speaking of technology. There are places in Europe that
> > > enjoy much higher bandwidth speeds than we do in the U.S. and where
> > > cards with imbedded chips are the norm, not the exception. Mobile
> > > commerce is much more advanced in Asia than it is in the states.
> > >
> > > One of the reasons the U.S. lags is, paradoxically, because our
> > > domestic market is so big. It's far easier to offer new and better
> > > technology in a small country or geographic region that it is in a
> > > large one. This is why we don't have credit cards with chips in them
> > > because it's expensive to roll out that technology in a large market.
> > > The same dilemma is evident now with near-field communication chips
> > > (NFC) that will allow us to pay for things by waiving our mobile
> > > devices at a reader. It costs money to install readers at every
> > > checkout counter and companies balk at paying for that when consumer
> > > demand for this service has not been demonstrated.
> > >
> > > And this is the problem with the "mark as technology" idea. If the
> > > mark is an imbedded chip (as many believe) or some other kind of
> > > technology, it will take time to develop the technology and then roll
> > > out hardware and software needed to support the technology. And even
> > > if we accept that this can be done in the advanced economies of the
> > > world, there will still be large areas of the world (primarily in
> > > Africa and Asia) where it will never happen, at least, not in our
> > > lifetimes.
> > >
> > > But, here's where it gets interesting. Those parts of the world that
> > > are still developing into industrial societies are in some cases,
> > > jumping right to post-industrial technology. There are parts of
> > > Africa, for example, that have never built-out standard landline phone
> > > service but they have decided to skip that and jump right to cellular
> > > service. The standard of living may be very low compared to Western
> > > standards, but they have cell phones.
> > >
> > > So, in this context, a mobile payment system that allows people to pay
> > > with their cell phones is very intriguing because it means that those
> > > parts of the world that I was willing to write off may yet be included
> > > in the mark system.
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Daniel <jayjeti@> wrote:
> > > > I've wondered how in a cashless society, should one ever be implemented, how individuals could make transactions among themselves. Today I saw a commercial where a group were at a restaurant, and they had one bill that everyone needed to chip into to pay.  One person paid the restaurant, and the others gave that person their part of the bill by pulling out their cell phones and sending money to his bank account.  But one person pulls out his wallet and starts pulling cash out of it, and the others look at him like he's an idiot, and he looks embarrassed.  The commercial says all you need is their e-mail address.
> > > >
> > > > I don't have a video of the commercial, but here's something similiar.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uw5bMrZ3wU
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_L3Cc9VqI&feature=related
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEurC8AUB2Y&feature=related
> > > >
> > > > I wonder if some day people might need an implanted chip to work in concert with a cell phone so that someone oould not steal your cell phone and key information and empty your account.
> > > >
> > > > Daniel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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