Hi Daniel,



I really believe the problem is finite man trying to understand and put human meaning to what an infinite God pens.



You say Darius couldn’t possible have written to the whole world or that all the world’s nations couldn’t really march against Jerusalem. Unless we depend on the greatness of our God I guess it’s hard to comprehend how that could be.



Yet, is it harder to understand that someone like Hitler could be a whosoever and will be in heaven if he asked Christ into his heart before taking his life?

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Or that God was thinking about Bin Laden or George "The Baby Killer" Tiller when He said any and all?

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



We look at these verses and say of course God was thinking of them and reason that’s because of our great God’s infinite love. We don’t try to use human reasoning to understand those all’s and whosoevers. In those cases we just accept God’s greatness and are willing to proclaim it to all. Why not in all cases, even when doing so wouldn’t support a belief?



You said:

>No, if Young's wanted to specify that it meant 10,000 it should have used 10,000

I think you are trying to make Young’s translation fit your interpretation. Let’s look at the verse as Young translated it:

Rev 9:16  and the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.



Now let’s read it using the second definition of myriads as you would define it.

Daniel’s Rev 9:16  and the number of the forces of the horsemen is two uncountable numbers of uncountable number, and I heard the number of them.

Reading the verse with your definition of myriads makes absolutely no sense.



I really believe you are the only one translating the verse the way you do. Here are 20 reputable and authoritative translations and if you add what I believe is the correct definition of myriads in Young’s there are 21 translations all giving 200,000,000 in their translation.



16  (AKJV) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

16  (EMTV) Now the number of the troops of the horsemen was a hundred million; I heard the number of them.

16  (Philips) The number of their horsemen was two hundred million — heard what their number was.

16  (RSV) The number of the troops of cavalry was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.

16  (WTNT) And the number of horsemen of war, were twenty times xM And I heard the number of them:

16  (Webster) and the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

16  (NKJV) Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

16  (Message) The number of the army of horsemen was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard the count

16  (Darby) and the number of the hosts of horse was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

16  (HCSB) The number of mounted troops was 200 million; I heard their number.

16  (ASV) And the number of the armies of the horsemen was twice ten thousand times ten thousand: I heard the number of them.

16  (GenevaBible)  And the number of horsemen of war were twenty thousand times ten thousand: for I heard the number of them.

16  (AVRLE) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

16  (BBE) And the number of the armies of the horsemen was twice ten thousand times ten thousand: the number of them came to my ears.

16  (CJB) and the number of cavalry soldiers was two hundred million! -I heard the number.

16  (ERV) And the number of the armies of the horsemen was twice ten thousand times ten thousand: I heard the number of them.

16  (ESV) The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.

16  (Douay) And the number of the army of horsemen was twenty thousand times ten thousand. And I heard the number of them.

16  (GNBE) I was told the number of the mounted troops: it was two hundred million.

16  (GWV) The soldiers on horses numbered 20,000 times 10,000. I heard how many there were.



I think you may have given an explanation when you said:

> When Zech. 14:2 says that all nations will march against Jerusalem, I don't think …

I use to say, “if God said and I believe it, that settles it”. But I was wrong then.

Now I firmly believe if God says something, it doesn’t matter what I think or believe, what God said is right and it’s settled.

                                                                                                

YBIC,

Ken





From: bible_prophecy-l@yaho... [mailto:bible_prophecy-l@yaho...] On Behalf Of Daniel
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:27 AM
To: bible_prophecy-l@yaho...
Subject: [bible_prophecy-l] Re: Mark update



  



--- In bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ken" <kensch888@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
>
>
> I’m sorry, I don’t always think of you when writing. In fact, I didn’t believe you thought that He would use the WWW or a TV network.

Ken,

I didn't address that. But I'm the only one in recent history who said anything about nuclear war or helicopters which you focused on; so, it's no mystery. It's not like this hasn't come up before.

You wrote:

>
>
>
> As the world found out it’s hard to argue the merits of an occurrence when the meaning of common words like *is* are redefined.

..........

Bill Clinton is the only one I know who has argued the definition of what is is. He looked dishonest in focusing on that.

You wrote:

No sense arguing, you just have to say is is is. I think you probable didn’t pick the best example, as King Darius did write to all. It’s just that all didn’t read it.

.........

my comment:

Nothing is said about not everyone reading it, and he could't have written to everyone on the planet, to all those in China, India, Southeast Asia, Europe, and Africa. That's just not possible. He only wrote to the people of his empire even though it says he wrote to all languages and all nations in all the earth. It just requires some abstact thought to understand that some usages of all in the Bible refers to a great number.

When Zech. 14:2 says that all nations will march against Jerusalem, I don't think it's necessary for all the little Pacific island or Caribbean island nations to have their armies there. Joel 3:2, "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. . . ." I believe that's a reference to Armageddon, and I suppose it's possible for all the world's nations to gather there, but I don't think that's necessary given how all is used in some other passages to not mean completely all.

You wrote:

>
>
>
> I don’t think I could count 200,000,000 men accurately let alone demon monstrosities , so myriads would work for me. Besides, it’s interesting when we look to Webster’s dictionary for myriads we find Young’s also says 20,000 x 10,000 or 200,000,000.
>
>
>
> Definition of MYRIAD
>
> 1: ten thousand
>
> 2: a great number <a myriad of ideas>

...........

No, if Young's wanted to specify that it meant 10,000 it should have used 10,000. And even if it had, in ancient times the number 10,000 was used to represent an uncountable number. When the passage says two myriads times a myriad it's speaking of an extremely large company, period. It doesn't have to mean 200 million soldiers even if used 10,000 multiplied.

But that's not the point I was making. The point is that languages can put applications on words that we would not, like we would not use 10,000 to represent an unccountable number. Likewise, there are passages inwhich all and every are used to represent a large number.

Daniel

>
>
>
> YBIC,
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
> From: bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>  [mailto:bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Daniel
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:27 PM
> To: bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [bible_prophecy-l] Re: Mark update
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ken" <kensch888@> wrote:
>
> > My goodness (and I have none) do we serve a God who needs our help in doing things? Are we feeling so superior that we should offer the God of ALL creation help in getting His message out or fulfilling His prophecy? I’ve heard some say John was describing a nuclear war in Revelation or that He was referring to helicopters and not demon monstrosities. Couldn’t it just be our GREAT God showing His greatness.
>
> Ken,
>
> I take exception of my "feeling superior" over God. Just because I don't share your stricter literal reading of the book of Revelation doesn't deserve that kind of response. I first heard the idea of the locusts of Rev. 9 being attack helicopters and the horses of that same chapter referring to tanks decades ago from Dr. Jack Van Impe. Hal Lindsey in his book, "Apocalypse Code" also believes they are describing helicopters and tanks, as did Jerry Falwell.
>
> Rev. 9 uses the words "like" and "as" over and over which are clear symbolic markers. If you want to read those descriptions as literal then I view that as poor hermenutics, but I'm not going to belittle you over your over-literalistic approach in the manner you feel comfortable doing to my approach.
>
> The two most prominent views regarding the early trumpets is either the earth suffers a great meteor impact of it's describing nudlear war. I think it's nuclear war. You might think it's all supernaturally despensed from God without any human agency, and you have a right to your view as much as myself and others have a right to view it differently.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > Maybe I'm just a simple stupid creature who believes God can do anything He wants in any way He wants without my help and if He says something He, having more intelligence than me, doesn't need me to change His words to help Him out a little here and there.
>
> .........
>
> My comment:
>
> I just don't take the extreme literal approach you do to apocalyptic literature. That type of literature employs a great deal of symbolism, and you shouldn't equate your literalisitc view with God's word and my approach as changing his words to help him out as you say. I would rather you argued the merits of my interpretation than making it about me.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > I agree with you Cheri, all is all. Our God wouldn't try to fool us into believing all nations or the whole world and then sneaking it in with almost all nations.
>
> My comment:
>
> Perhaps you are right that even the tribes in the deepest dark jungles of the world will receive the mark of the beast for buying and selling. When Zech. 14:2 states, "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle. . ." perhaps Costa Rica, Uraguay, and all the little island nations like Nauru, Comoros, or Antigua send troops there.
>
> You wrote:
>
> I guess some would say we could give God a helping hand and let Him use our Internet or possible broadcast over our media networks, but our God doesn’t need to.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure we can go here or there and pull a verse out and say God couldn’t really mean what He said there because of this; oh yes, man knows better.
>
> ........
>
> My comment:
>
> Setting the sarcasm aside, wouldn't it be better to address these verses I've supposedly pulled out to say God couldn't have meant what he said.
>
> Dan. 6:25, "Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you."
>
> Now, wasn't that limited in it's scope, not literally all people everywhere?
>
> Romans 1:8, "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."
>
> Did Paul really believe that the gospel message had gone out to the whole world in his day, or is his use of the whole world due to that term sometimes used for a large number, or all of a whole, but not completely all.
>
> You need to be careful about putting strict limitations on what God's word can do. It's like in ancient times the number 10,000 was used to represent an uncountable number, not just a specific number. The KJV reads it literally as 10,000 and translates a multiple that would equal 200 million soldiers crossing the Euphrates River in Rev. 9:16.
>
> I believe Young's Literal Translation gives a more accurate rendering, calling it myriads which in English is simply an uncountable number.
>
> Rev. 9:16, "and the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them."
>
> http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3461
>
> Daniel
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree with you Cheri, all is all. Our God wouldn’t try to fool us into believing all nations or the whole world and then sneaking it in with almost all nations. How long did it take God to make â€Å"all” of the creatures on the earth? Or how long did it take God to make â€Å"all” of the stars? I guess some would say we could give God a helping hand and let Him use our Internet or possible broadcast over our media networks, but our God doesn’t need to.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure we can go here or there and pull a verse out and say God couldn’t really mean what He said there because of this; oh yes, man knows better.
> >
> >
> >
> > I always though the mark was to be placed *in* their forehead or *in* their right hand. So now we’re going to engrave the entire World Wide Web magically on men. Could God have made another mistake and really meant the forehead was some mystical place or the right hand might mean the left hand or a mental process that equates to a hand moving a mouse or touching a touch screen.
> >
> >
> >
> > I’m sorry; either He is God or we believe man is god. Either He wrote the bible using man or man wrote the bible and made mistakes.
> >
> >
> >
> > My goodness (and I have none) do we serve a God who needs our help in doing things? Are we feeling so superior that we should offer the God of ALL creation help in getting His message out or fulfilling His prophecy? I’ve heard some say John was describing a nuclear war in Revelation or that He was referring to helicopters and not demon monstrosities. Couldn’t it just be our GREAT God showing His greatness.
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe I’m just a simple stupid creature who believes God can do anything He wants in any way He wants without my help and if He says something He, having more intelligence than me, doesn’t need me to change His words to help Him out a little here and there. Maybe that’s it; man doesn’t have the intelligence to begin to comprehend the greatness of God and just can’t admit that.
> >
> >
> >
> > I’m sorry; I’ve been lurking, but I just have to open my mouth because the GOD of ALL creation is GOD. He really is.
> >
> >
> >
> > YBIC,
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Cheri
> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:26 PM
> > To: bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [bible_prophecy-l] Re: Mark update
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I feel the image will be a huge statue or possibly a hologram that the whole world will be able to see due to 24 hour news via media//internet. It will be the image of the beast and worshipped, much like the golden statues were being worshipped when Moses came down from the mountaintop.
> >
> > The "mark" will be the name of the anti christ, but we believers won't know who this will be, we'll be gone, raptured before he takes over as "king of the world". We might see possibilities appear during our lifetime, but we won't know the meaning of the number of his name or who he will be.
> >
> > I see the whole world meaning just that, all nations. Due to technology, our world is smaller than ever with instant transactions from one country to another. We can talk face to face through the Internet in real time. I remember during the Vietnam era, we waited weeks for mail to get back and forth, but now we just need a computer and we have immediate communication.
> >
> > My mom is 90 and the things she as seen invented in her lifetime is mind boggling. I can remember the first television my great aunt bought with a screen not much bigger than my IPad!
> >
> > God has a plan, John described what God showed him in the language and from the knowledge he had from the time he lived in. I firmly believe when God says a mark, it will be in allegiance to this world leader. There will be no mistaking who people are following when they take the mark, it will not be God.
> >
> > Cheri
> >
> > On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:23 AM, "Daniel" <jayjeti@ <mailto:jayjeti@%20%3cmailto:jayjeti%40yahoo.com> <mailto:jayjeti%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> >
> > > Joel,
> > >
> > > I don't know about the www being 666. Hebrew uses letter/number equvalents. The "waw" which has a "W" sound is used for the number 6. So, www is 666 if you translate that into the Hebrew letter/number system. But I can't make sense of how that works in a mark used for buying and selling.
> > >
> > > In all seven occurances of the mark of the beast, we find the image mentioned in it's immediate context. Neither the image nor the mark ever appear independent of one another. So, they are connected in some way.
> > >
> > > I suspect the image that can speak might be symbolizing the computer network necessary for the mark to complete it's transactions. Computers communicate which is best symbolized by speech. In times past man has made man made objects out of stone and wood, but computers are the first man made object that can actually communicate (speak). So, I wonder if the image that can speak is the computer network. Since the mark and the image always occur in tandem, I think both are involved in making transactions.
> > >
> > > So, I suppose you could say that the world wide web (www/666) could be how we should view that, but I don't about that. I would like to see something more concrete.
> > >
> > > Yes, I have commented that "all" doesn't necessarily mean completely all in scripture, but can be all of a whole, such as when Paul said the goepel message had gone out to the whole world in his day. Of course that was limited to the Roman Empire. Nebuchadnezzar is said to rule all the earth, and the same is said for other empires in Daniel, but we know that it had limitations.
> > >
> > > We can't always compare how we strictly use a word in English to how scripture uses it. In Zech. 14:16-19 it says that "everyone" will come up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, but then immediately talks about the punishment of those who do not.
> > >
> > > We read in passages like Zech. 14 or Rev. 16 that "all" the nations of the earth will march against Israel. Will Costa Rica be there? They don't even have an army. I don't think it's necessary to always strictly read the word all like we use it in English.
> > >
> > > And of course peoples like the Indians deep in the Amazon jungle will likely not be taking the mark of the beast to buy and sell. The scripture says that he causes "all" to take the mark, but we know from scripture that some are killed for refusing to take it, and there must be tribes deep in jungles who are not even offered it. So, not everyone takes it.
> > >
> > > So, if we look at biblical uses of all or every it's not always the strict interpretation we put on it.
> > >
> > > I think the mark will begin in Europe and spread from there. Just like Rome was not built in a day, I see this system beginning in Europe and spreading. Scripture doesn't say how quickly the world comes under his power, which seems to center around his control of the world's economies. Nations will probably fall in line due to how he can effect their economies.
> > >
> > > I was thinking the same thing you mentioned, that even in less developed areas of the world a lot of people have cell phones. Even Col. Khadafi, when he was shown alive shortly before he died, seemed to have been recorded on someone's cell phone.
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > --- In bible_prophecy-l@yaho... <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bible_prophecy-l%40yahoogroups.com> , Portents <portents2@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Daniel,
> > > >
> > > > That's very interesting. I don't know if it was here on BP_L or on
> > > > another forum, but a writer was making an argument (and I didn't
> > > > really follow the logic of it) that the mark of the beast - 666 -
> > > > could be translated as www and he concluded that this meant the
> > > > internet itself was the mark and that eventually no one will be able
> > > > to buy or sell who is not on the network. I'm not sure I buy that
> > > > argument. The mark is, scripturally speaking, the name or the number
> > > > of the beast, it's a very personal idea tied to a real person, not an
> > > > abstract idea, like a computer network. Still, I had to give the guy
> > > > credit for an interesting spin on the mark and far more compelling
> > > > than other ideas that people have (social security numbers, barcodes,
> > > > etc.) over the years.
> > > >
> > > > And to return this to your example of mobile payment systems, we have
> > > > talked before about the infrastructure needed to implement the mark
> > > > and whether the mark is really global in scope.
> > > >
> > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you making the argument some
> > > > time back that "all" doesn't' necessarily mean all in a global sense
> > > > in the context of a truly universal system that covers all people
> > > > since we recognize that the time required for the entire world to
> > > > adopt the same standard would mean that it would take another century
> > > > or more for the mark to be implemented. It would be enough for it to
> > > > cover only the modern industrialized world because that would include
> > > > the "world" of the focal point of prophecy, namely Israel. The rest of
> > > > the world, those lawless places the still use cash or barter for goods
> > > > and services, would be untouched by the mark just as they are passed
> > > > by the use of debit cards or credit cards.
> > > >
> > > > Even though I was troubled by the fast and loose translation of "all"
> > > > in this context as something other than the plain meaning of the word
> > > > I accepted the basic idea. Like you, I've done a fair bit of
> > > > traveling, both to parts of the world more advanced than the U.S. and
> > > > less advanced. And to those of you shocked at the "more advanced"
> > > > part, I'm speaking of technology. There are places in Europe that
> > > > enjoy much higher bandwidth speeds than we do in the U.S. and where
> > > > cards with imbedded chips are the norm, not the exception. Mobile
> > > > commerce is much more advanced in Asia than it is in the states.
> > > >
> > > > One of the reasons the U.S. lags is, paradoxically, because our
> > > > domestic market is so big. It's far easier to offer new and better
> > > > technology in a small country or geographic region that it is in a
> > > > large one. This is why we don't have credit cards with chips in them
> > > > because it's expensive to roll out that technology in a large market.
> > > > The same dilemma is evident now with near-field communication chips
> > > > (NFC) that will allow us to pay for things by waiving our mobile
> > > > devices at a reader. It costs money to install readers at every
> > > > checkout counter and companies balk at paying for that when consumer
> > > > demand for this service has not been demonstrated.
> > > >
> > > > And this is the problem with the "mark as technology" idea. If the
> > > > mark is an imbedded chip (as many believe) or some other kind of
> > > > technology, it will take time to develop the technology and then roll
> > > > out hardware and software needed to support the technology. And even
> > > > if we accept that this can be done in the advanced economies of the
> > > > world, there will still be large areas of the world (primarily in
> > > > Africa and Asia) where it will never happen, at least, not in our
> > > > lifetimes.
> > > >
> > > > But, here's where it gets interesting. Those parts of the world that
> > > > are still developing into industrial societies are in some cases,
> > > > jumping right to post-industrial technology. There are parts of
> > > > Africa, for example, that have never built-out standard landline phone
> > > > service but they have decided to skip that and jump right to cellular
> > > > service. The standard of living may be very low compared to Western
> > > > standards, but they have cell phones.
> > > >
> > > > So, in this context, a mobile payment system that allows people to pay
> > > > with their cell phones is very intriguing because it means that those
> > > > parts of the world that I was willing to write off may yet be included
> > > > in the mark system.
> > > >
> > > > Joel
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Daniel <jayjeti@> wrote:
> > > > > I've wondered how in a cashless society, should one ever be implemented, how individuals could make transactions among themselves. Today I saw a commercial where a group were at a restaurant, and they had one bill that everyone needed to chip into to pay. One person paid the restaurant, and the others gave that person their part of the bill by pulling out their cell phones and sending money to his bank account. But one person pulls out his wallet and starts pulling cash out of it, and the others look at him like he's an idiot, and he looks embarrassed. The commercial says all you need is their e-mail address.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't have a video of the commercial, but here's something similiar.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uw5bMrZ3wU
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_L3Cc9VqI <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_L3Cc9VqI <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_L3Cc9VqI <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_L3Cc9VqI&feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEurC8AUB2Y <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEurC8AUB2Y <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEurC8AUB2Y <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEurC8AUB2Y&feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if some day people might need an implanted chip to work in concert with a cell phone so that someone oould not steal your cell phone and key information and empty your account.
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
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> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > > > http://prophecynews.blogspot.com/
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