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e : europa-list-digest@matronics.com 11 November 2004 • 3:56PM -0500

Europa-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 11/10/04
by Europa-List Digest Server

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                           Europa-List Digest Archive
                                      ---
                     Total Messages Posted Wed 11/10/04: 11
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------

     1. 05:26 AM - kit still for sale  (Runnymede73@aol....)
     2. 05:48 AM - Re: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents  (EuropaXSA276@aol....)
     3. 09:26 AM - Re: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents  (Aircraft Spruce)
     4. 12:22 PM - Fw: Europa Aircraft 2004 Service  (Jac van Heeswijk)
     5. 12:26 PM - Re: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents  (RoddyEuropa@aol....)
     6. 01:45 PM - Re: New Spar Pip-pn  (Raimo Toivio)
     7. 02:35 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa?  (bryan allsop)
     8. 04:29 PM - Mono Master Cylinder Cost  (Tony Renshaw)
     9. 05:52 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa?  (Richard Sementilli)
    10. 06:31 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa?  (Tony Krzyzewski)
    11. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: What engine for my Europa?  (Andy Silvester)



________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________


Time: 05:26:42 AM PST US
From: Runnymede73@aol....
Subject: Europa-List: kit still for sale

--> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol....


Due to other commitments I have need to sell my XS monowheel Kit.
All the flying surfaces have been professionally built but not  filled.
The wings are complete but not covered and the cockpit module is  finished
but not Reduxed in to the 'canoe' lower fuselage. The windscreen and  panels
are clear for safety reasons. Some work has been carried out to alter the  kit
to a so called 'taildragger' but this is minimal and can easily be reversed.
Full inventory. No engine. Over =A318,000 invested + professional fees. Make  an
offer. The new factory kits will soon be more  expensive.






________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________


Time: 05:48:04 AM PST US
From: EuropaXSA276@aol....
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents

--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol....

Hi Steve:

The NACA vent supplied by Europe have been discontinued. These were one of a
handful of parts the were backorder on my original shipment.

I can tell you the consensus is the they are pretty much garbage.  In fact
many builders have offered to send me their vents gratis!  Usually a very bad
sign...

My understanding is that Spruce has these vents if you are dead set at repair
and not replacement.  Best to buy a few. They break often.

Tailwinds

Brian S
A276 Tri Gear. Texas
See my build photos at:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/BrianS






________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________


Time: 09:26:51 AM PST US
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  b=HYq5jV1g2ZkzxjGPfrLZMK42WcKgySn689+8o+C2EzH5qrlBaQUNBQ+urfEVxL/ZLHXAKj5CBU7gqNdhIkG1Zd/kA64q+ZfYSr1PzDsg2ke5847St/fmWvvg4JxOq2GAOuZQpOia8/AWCMM1d796zfgp2pplLu2MZlEhJeNqcAs=
;
From: Aircraft Spruce <fun_plane@YAHO...>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents

--> Europa-List message posted by: Aircraft Spruce <fun_plane@yaho...>

Part numbers from Aircraft Spruce.  

These are similar to the old 01-30500 which are now no longer available.

05-01445  NACA AIR INLET SCOOP ABS $56.70 Black
05-01446  NACA AIR INLET KIT LEXAN $89.95 Clear
05-00774  NACA AIR INLET SCOOP FIBERLGLS $53.75 White


Page 185 of the 2004-2005 catalog.  You can call 877-477-7823 for further info.

Regards,
Renee Gelinas


Michael Grass <M.Grass@comc...> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass"

Hi Steve

try page 183 P/N 01-30500 $22.95 Adjustable NACA Air Scoop from the
2003-2004 catalog.

Michael Grass
A266 Trigear
Detroit, MI
CM bonded in
Working (again) on the tailplane
Wings not started yet


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Crimm"
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents


> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm"

>
> Having searched Aircraft Spruce's web site and print catalog I haven't
seen
> a NACA vent that is adjustable. If someone knows the part number that
might
> help. The last thing I want to do is replace the vent. Coming to think of
> it, it probably won't happen...
>
> Anyone ever repaired them?
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matr...
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matr...] On Behalf Of Tony
Krzyzewski
> To: europa-list@matr...
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski"
>
>
> >>> I'm fairly sure that Aircraft Spruce sells this exact vent.
>
> They do... And they break just as easily!
>
> Tony
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>


                        
---------------------------------






________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________


Time: 12:22:55 PM PST US
From: "Jac van Heeswijk" <jac.vanheeswijk@hetn...>
Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Europa Aircraft 2004 Service

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jac van Heeswijk" <jac.vanheeswijk@hetn...>


The way the three gentlemen in Kirkbymoorside are acting gives me a  good
feeling with respect to the future of  Europa(04).

Some weeks ago I called with John and I ordered a complete firewall
forward kit plus a complete speed kit, to be collected after three weeks.

Yesterday was the day. They gave me an absolute cordial welcome there and
today I returned back in the Netherlands with everything flawless aboard.

Good work John, Andy,  Roger! And a special thank you to Andy for the
extensive and practical advise he gave me in the meantime on all my
technical questions.

I really felt back home again there, like in the earlier days (the VERY
earlier days I mean!).

Jack van Heeswijk, 394 tri

(Engine and upholstery still to do, hope to fly next summer).
(And also considering myself  a satisfied customer, they really do good
work!)


----- Original Message -----
From: "N55XS" <topglock@cox....>
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Aircraft 2004 Service


> --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS <topglock@cox....>
>
> Just wanted to share my experience.  Just recently, I contacted John
> Wheeler at Europa to order a few parts.  John was quick to respond to my
> inquiries, providing availability and pricing, including shipping
> costs.  I ordered a few of the lighter parts and had them shipped
> airmail, to the USA.  They arrived in just over a week.  I've got to
> hand it to the new company.  They're doing everything they can to make
> it a going concern, again.
>
> My genuine thanks to John and the new Europa staff for all their
> efforts.  Consider me a satisfied customer...
>
> --
> Jeff - A055
> Builders Log: http://www.N55XS.com
>
>






________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________


Time: 12:26:47 PM PST US
From: RoddyEuropa@aol....
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents

--> Europa-List message posted by: RoddyEuropa@aol....


I repaired mine, and the repair has held good.

Take one of the large, load spreading washers, and countersink the hole  with
a large drill bit. Then put a countersunk machine screw (3/16 or 5 mm)  
though the washer and weld the two together - so you end up with a machine  screw

with a huge flat head.
Grind the head flat if needed.  
Screw it into the plastic opening knob  - it will cut its own  thread.
Get an adhesive pad - the type designed to stick a rear view mirror onto a  
car windscreen, and stick it to the the washer.  
And then re-assemble vent, and turn the knob until the vent  is closed.
The washer will stick to the vent, and you now have the same mechanism as  
before, but with a steel shaft.

Probably harder to explain than to do!

Roddy Kesterton #220

In a message dated 09/11/2004 23:50:35 GMT Standard Time,  
steve.crimm@step... writes:

-->  Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm"  
<steve.crimm@step...>

Flight,

In the XS that I  recently purchased it has NACA vents, on each side of the
cabin for fresh  air, that were provided by Europa with the kit.  These vents
have an  adjustment screw that allows for the opening and closing of a little
flap  for the vent.  

Well here is the problem, one of  the  adjustment parts, the screw shaft, is
broken so it is either wide open or  closed by stuffing something against the
flap to hold it closed.  

Has anyone in out worldwide family had this same problem?  

And has anyone, who is really creative, been able to repair this type  of
vent issue?

And does anyone know who the manufacture of the  adjustable vent might be?

Thanks,

Steve  Crimm
N15JN
A058






________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________


Time: 01:45:02 PM PST US
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm....>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm....>

Duncan,

Sorry, my missunderstanding!

Of course my MacMaster
pip-pin has two pips!
Just like Fred wrote.

Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orca...>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn


> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orca...>
>
>
> >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> >> <ami@mcfa...>
> >>
> >> One pip or two pips?
> >>
> >> Duncan Mcf.
>
> Duncan,
>
> A couple of months ago when we all had at this issue, in my checking of the
> McMaster catalogue showed me that each pin had 2 pips...i.e., 2 pips
> opposite oneanother. FYI, McMaster also sells a line of heavier duty pins
> which have 2 rows of 2 pips each.
>
> Fred
> A194
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






________________________________  Message 7  _____________________________________


Time: 02:35:09 PM PST US
From: "bryan allsop" <info@blac...>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?

--> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" <info@blac...>

Richard,

The 912s is a good match for the Europa. With a well balanced prop and the
tiniest bit of management, it runs nicely, and starts and stops without
fuss. Unless you want to fly above 7000 feet a lot, why add the extra cost,
weight, and complexity to a beautifull combination?
A wobbly prop will add 20 pound weight, two or three thousand pounds cash,
an extra log book etc., but will give you more performance than you will
ever really need for a Mono with the average grass strip.

Hope this helps.  Cheers   Bryan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sementilli" <rsementi@gmai...>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?


> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmai...>
>
> So then, Karl, where can I find the information about how to make the
> 912S run as smooth as a sewing machine?
>
> As a newcomer, I am still confused but overall, I have been getting
> more positive feedback vs. negative feedback. Plus, I asked for
> objective observations and actual experience with the 912S. I think
> Terry is simply stating his experiences. Hopefully we'll all learn how
> to get the engine to run smoother than he is experiencing.
>
> Does anyone out there have any suggestions or solutions to the rough
> start/stop and idle of the 912 S?
>
> Thanks to all,
> Richard
>
>
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:26:04 +0000, KARL HEINDL <kheindl@msn....> wrote:
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn....>
> >
> > Terry,
> >
> > Y ouseem to be badmouthing a perfectly good engine just because you have
a problem with yours. Some builders have their 912 S running as smooth as a
sewing machine. Mine could be smoother, but then I have not yet done a carb
or propeller blade balance. Techniques for smooth startups and shutdowns
were discussed in detail recently on this forum. I have no idea about high
altitude performance, but one owner claims 914 equivalent performance up to
10,000 feet. The 914 is obviously a better performer at really high
altitudes. It should also be kept in mind that early Europa builders did not
have the choice of the S model.
> >
> > I have read all the engine discussions and it seems that each type has
had reports ranging from awful to wonderful. How is a newcomer supposed to
make up his mind ?
> >
> > Karl
> >
> > From: Terry Seaver terrys@cisc...
> > To: europa-list@matr...
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?
> > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800
> >
> > -- Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver terrys@cisc...
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > You didn't say where you do your flying.If you intend flying at
> > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the
> > 914 the best bet.
> > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop.I would seriously
> > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our
> > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine).
> > Issues I have with the 912S are:
> >
> > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great
> > stress on any number of componants.Our exhaust system is in constant
> > need of repair because of this.An ignition wire probably broke because
> > of this.Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme
> > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener.It is not
> > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a
> > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of
> > its higher compression.I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother.
> >
> > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes.At 7,000+
> > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off
> > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little.Climb rate at these altitudes
> > can also be lower than I would like.
> >
> > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy
> > advantages of flying at altitude.The 914 is altitude compensating, and
> > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?).
> >
> > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater
> > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out
> > every 300-400 hours.There have also been suggestions that idling the
> > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough
> > idling.We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the
> > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust.
> >
> > just my two cents worth,
> > regards,
> > Terry Seaver
> > A135 / N135TD
> >
> > Richard Sementilli wrote:
> >
> > -- Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli rsementi@gmai...
> >
> > I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
> > 1. Rotax 912S
> > 2. Rotax 914
> > 3. Jabiru 3300
> >
> > I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
> > anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
> > My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
> > more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
> > engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
> > spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
> > experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
> > with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
> > iffeel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
> >
> >
> > My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
> > great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
> > relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
> > comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
> > near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
> > research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
> > the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
> > may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
> > The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
> > maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
> > I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
> > Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better
choice?
> >
> >
> >
>
>






________________________________  Message 8  _____________________________________


Time: 04:29:50 PM PST US
From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@optu...>
Subject: Europa-List: Mono Master Cylinder Cost

--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@optu...>

Gidday,
I have a friend wanting to purchase my master cylinder and I am wondering
if anyone knows how much they are worth, or who manufactures them please???

Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia

Classic 236  B.B. Taildragger
Currently working on  Rudder Pedals,
In  but tight so more work to go on them.
Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
Lower Fuse in Jig,
Tail Torque Tube installed with temporary timber dowels.
Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
Roof Panel between doors completed.
Photos at:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR
Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial
Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a sticky
situation






________________________________  Message 9  _____________________________________


Time: 05:52:55 PM PST US
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
        s=beta; d=gmail.com;
        b=BFpnTQ77r2siJONHjPsMAlLbsuiDTlQb5rk8e/XtUs4jk78pyuJP+zAFwTdh65U78ckHB2mWSS8hMb7K1Ic3+6gGz0e4ODU6I+yk3DymYvL/a5aIw2UlZt2E3IPrclVsrPhd9A9o6nSyZbiqpSUTrQCE7xHgBjQLKMqgpMSErPQReceived:
by 10.38.82.80 with SMTP id f80mr491415rnb;
        Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:52:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmai...>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?

--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmai...>

whats a wobbly prop?


On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:34:47 -0000, bryan allsop
<info@blac...> wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" <info@blac...>
>
> Richard,
>
> The 912s is a good match for the Europa. With a well balanced prop and the
> tiniest bit of management, it runs nicely, and starts and stops without
> fuss. Unless you want to fly above 7000 feet a lot, why add the extra cost,
> weight, and complexity to a beautifull combination?
> A wobbly prop will add 20 pound weight, two or three thousand pounds cash,
> an extra log book etc., but will give you more performance than you will
> ever really need for a Mono with the average grass strip.
>
> Hope this helps.  Cheers   Bryan
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Sementilli" <rsementi@gmai...>
> To: <europa-list@matr...>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmai...>
> >
> > So then, Karl, where can I find the information about how to make the
> > 912S run as smooth as a sewing machine?
> >
> > As a newcomer, I am still confused but overall, I have been getting
> > more positive feedback vs. negative feedback. Plus, I asked for
> > objective observations and actual experience with the 912S. I think
> > Terry is simply stating his experiences. Hopefully we'll all learn how
> > to get the engine to run smoother than he is experiencing.
> >
> > Does anyone out there have any suggestions or solutions to the rough
> > start/stop and idle of the 912 S?
> >
> > Thanks to all,
> > Richard
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:26:04 +0000, KARL HEINDL <kheindl@msn....> wrote:
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn....>
> > >
> > > Terry,
> > >
> > > Y ouseem to be badmouthing a perfectly good engine just because you have
> a problem with yours. Some builders have their 912 S running as smooth as a
> sewing machine. Mine could be smoother, but then I have not yet done a carb
> or propeller blade balance. Techniques for smooth startups and shutdowns
> were discussed in detail recently on this forum. I have no idea about high
> altitude performance, but one owner claims 914 equivalent performance up to
> 10,000 feet. The 914 is obviously a better performer at really high
> altitudes. It should also be kept in mind that early Europa builders did not
> have the choice of the S model.
> > >
> > > I have read all the engine discussions and it seems that each type has
> had reports ranging from awful to wonderful. How is a newcomer supposed to
> make up his mind ?
> > >
> > > Karl
> > >
> > > From: Terry Seaver terrys@cisc...
> > > To: europa-list@matr...
> > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?
> > > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800
> > >
> > > -- Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver terrys@cisc...
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Richard,
> > >
> > > You didn't say where you do your flying.If you intend flying at
> > > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the
> > > 914 the best bet.
> > > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop.I would seriously
> > > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our
> > > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine).
> > > Issues I have with the 912S are:
> > >
> > > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great
> > > stress on any number of componants.Our exhaust system is in constant
> > > need of repair because of this.An ignition wire probably broke because
> > > of this.Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme
> > > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener.It is not
> > > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a
> > > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of
> > > its higher compression.I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother.
> > >
> > > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes.At 7,000+
> > > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off
> > > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little.Climb rate at these altitudes
> > > can also be lower than I would like.
> > >
> > > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy
> > > advantages of flying at altitude.The 914 is altitude compensating, and
> > > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?).
> > >
> > > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater
> > > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out
> > > every 300-400 hours.There have also been suggestions that idling the
> > > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough
> > > idling.We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the
> > > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust.
> > >
> > > just my two cents worth,
> > > regards,
> > > Terry Seaver
> > > A135 / N135TD
> > >
> > > Richard Sementilli wrote:
> > >
> > > -- Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli rsementi@gmai...
> > >
> > > I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
> > > 1. Rotax 912S
> > > 2. Rotax 914
> > > 3. Jabiru 3300
> > >
> > > I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
> > > anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
> > > My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
> > > more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
> > > engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
> > > spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
> > > experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
> > > with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
> > > iffeel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
> > > great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
> > > relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
> > > comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
> > > near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
> > > research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
> > > the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
> > > may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
> > > The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
> > > maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
> > > I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
> > > Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better
> choice?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>






________________________________  Message 10  ____________________________________


Time: 06:31:08 PM PST US
Subject: RE: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?
From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon...>

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon...>


>> whats a wobbly prop?

Constant Speed (or variable pitch) prop.

It's lovely thing, - about as useful as a gearbox on a car.

Tony






________________________________  Message 11  ____________________________________


Time: 07:19:29 PM PST US
From: "Andy Silvester" <info@sunc...>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: What engine for my Europa?

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <info@sunc...>

Gilles and others,

Thanks for the feedback. As for perceived noise levels for the Jabiru
engine, I can't really offer an explanation as to why it's so quiet! I think
you are expecting the PROPELLER to be noisy due to tip speed at the higher
(than Rotax) peak-rpm speed. Again, with the right prop, this is not an
issue. Jabiru make props at 60" diameter, and admittedly without personally
doing the calcs, the tip speed is around 0.75 mach (ok, prove me wrong!). In
any event, a noisy Jabiru engine is rare, and ALWAYS is due to the propeller
selection and it's interference with the airframe, as in the case of
pushers. We have (as John says) a quiet propeller in the warp drive /
Airmaster combination. Those fitting Warp Drive props to pusher
installations (Titan, etc), get much more propeller noise. With Jabiru's
standard wood prop on their aircraft, a level of 62dB(A) is easily achieved
when measuring a 1000' flypast at full throttle, measured on the ground.
This meets the German standards for aircraft noise which are, I believe,
pretty stringent. To summarise, there is no 'generic' issue with propeller
rpm and noise on the Jabiru engine - it's all about the installation.

I'll also try to clarify your points about break-in and maintenance. The
Jabiru has a simple valve-gear, with tappet / valve clearance adjustment
needed at 50-hour intervals. However, with a new engine it is important to
check these adjustments more frequently in the early stages of operation. We
recommend checks at 5, 10, 15 and 25 hours, then 50, and at 50-hour
intervals. Doing these checks tells owners many important things about their
engine's break-in phase: poor cooling shows-up inside the valve chambers as
burned oil deposits, the lack of oil in the valve gear would indicate a
supply problem, the 'movement' of head torque values over a period indicates
head overheating, and similarly valve clearances changing over a period of
time can indicate heating issues. Admittedly, such signs were somewhat more
common in earlier engines (over 4 years ago), but nowadays it is certainly
the exception to witness these tell-tale signs at any stage in the engine's
life. Nevertheless, we still feel it is important to do the checks, and the
confidence gained in a well-running engine that has started its life in good
health is very important. The adjustments can all be completed in less than
half an hour, and I have never heard of owners complaining about the
process. It's seen as a more of a health-check than a maintenance chore.

I hope to have answered the points raised.

Andy Silvester

Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
2003 Mainsail Drive
Naples, FL 34114
Tel: (239) 394 6800 Fax: (239) 394 0726
www.suncoastjabiru.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matr...
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matr...] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What engine for my Europa?

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee"
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-g...>


> Andy's comments about the Jabiru 3300 installation are very interesting
> and informative.  John Lawton's comments about the quietness of the Jabiru
> installation are provocative, given the 3000RPM takeoff RPM.  Andy, would
> you happen to have any ideas as to why this is so, and what Jabiru does
> to address the observer noise issue?
>

Here are a few data on the Jabiru 2200 direct from DynAero, the French
manufacturer and designer of the MCRs :

- They never had any problems with the Jabiru (except one which was covered
by warranty)
- It is lighter than the 912, which is it's main advantage
- It can't really use it's 80 hp due to the high prop RPM (3300 RPM as
compared to 2300 for the Rotax)
- For the same reasons the observer noise is higher because of the higher
tip mach number.
- It necessitates a real break in period of 50 h, with mineral oil,
adjustments every 5 hours, and much heating.
- They have 250 Rotax flying, and only two Jabiru so they don't have much
flight experience to date.
- They would recommend the Rotax for a private owner and the Jabiru for the
flying clubs, who have a Lycoming culture and would keep their familiar
landmarks with this "mini Lycoming".
Further, flying clubs use the Jabiru powered MCR circa 220 km/h, with a
fixed pitch propeller with medium pitch. This setup gives a performance very
similar to the familiar Robin DR 400.
- DynAero's intentions are to have few Jabiru powered aircraft for the time
being, but with high annual flight time (500 h per year) in order to rapidly
build experience with the engine.
- They have a great faith in this engine.

Regards,

Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France












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