Well Marsha, I am sorry you feel this way.  You are making Buddism
sound like some kind of foreign idea.  It is not, it is found in
everyday life.  It is those who seek to translate it into something
strange that are creating the problems.  All this silly
intellectualizing about what it means.  I love those who like to wear
the robes in this country because it makes them feel enlightened.
They think they have "discovered" something and try to make it somehow
seem different than our daily experience.  They act like they have
found a pot of gold and need to tell us all about it in books.  They
intellectualize it to the point of complete static quality.

All this talk about nothingness and patterns and the absence of Self?
Do you really buy into that?  You certainly have not explained why.
You say you cannot find the self logically, well that is your problem.
Of course you can't because that is the wrong tool to use.  It is not
subservient to reason, why would you even consider such reason to be
some kind of Proof that it doesn't exist?  You cannot point to your
own finger, but you can use your finger to point.

You seem to be so caught up in your intellect that you cannot even see
that you personally exist.  This is what I call Buddhist Zombie-ism.
The undead walking around as sets of patterns, nothing better than
that.  They all march to some predestined place as the patterns direct
them.  Oh, look one changed into a vampire, yes, I guess you are
right, ever-changing... but still void of anything meaningful. Why
become enlightened when there is nothing to enlighten?  Once a Zombie
always a Zombie.

I do not see why you put the concept of patterns above the sense of
Self.  You seem to be stuck in Thinking.  This is what Zen tries to
guide one out of.  Your thoughts happen to you, are you going to let
those thoughts tell you that you do not exist?  The only thing I ask
you to guard against is the Ego, but there is plenty more to you than
that.

Think about it.  Try some mindfulness the way it is supposed to be
done.  Then you will realize that all this pattern nonsense pales
beside Self Awareness.  Even if you want to call it "no-self
awareness", it is still Self Awareness, because you are the one doing
it.  Yes, You, not a pattern of some kind.  For if a pattern is
calling itself a pattern, where does that leave you?  You are much
better than that!

Cheers,
Mark

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 6:04 PM, MarshaV <valkyr@att....> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> There are hundreds of scholarly tomes and journal articles written by scholars addressing Buddhist philosophy and written in English.  Because you haven't been exposed to them doesn't mean they do not exist.  Buddhism has always been adaptable and accessable, and it has gone global.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:12 PM, 118 <ununoctiums@gmai...> wrote:
>
>> Hi Marsha,
>> For what it is worth, I have a comment (what a surprise).  I do find
>> the bridge making to be important to help the spread of MoQ.  MoQ is a
>> Western metaphysics since it uses Western concepts which help us to
>> discuss it.  None of us are familiar with the Eastern way of seeing
>> reality (as far as I know), except perhaps for some strict Buddhists
>> who sometimes contribute.
>>
>> The translation between East and West is difficult, especially when
>> using the Western vernacular.  An example of this, in my opinion, is
>> the use of the term Relative.  Those who translate the Eastern word
>> into the word relative do not have a philosophical appreciation of
>> what the term refers to in Western philosophy.  This confusion is not
>> uncommon since there are not many who are fully proficient in both
>> (myself included on both counts).  I find Alan Watts to be one such
>> person with a foot in both sides, but this took many years of direct
>> experience with both, and the ability to provide meaningful analogies.
>>
>> Somebody like Hagen may have an appreciation for Eastern Buddhism, but
>> he displays a lack of knowledge (in my opinion) of Western philosophy
>> with all its intricacies.  I do not blame him for this.  However, when
>> quotes of his are used to exemplify an Eastern tradition as is
>> consistent with Western thinking I find this to be somewhat naive and
>> superficial.  Hagen perhaps has an understanding of Buddhism, but he
>> does not have the tools to translate it for serious philosophers into
>> Western thinking.  His translations are more "fast food" than anything
>> else.  They are "feel good" sentiments for rapid consumption.  Yes, I
>> have read three of his books.
>>
>> These knots created by presenting quotes from him or Wallace for that
>> matter (Wallace is not a physicist, by the way), can be untied through
>> discussion.  However, that takes dynamic interpretation from both
>> sides of the discussion.  It does not help the revealing of the bridge
>> to simply stand firm on one's ground and state that "this is the way I
>> see it".
>>
>> So my only suggestion is to become involved in the discussion and
>> contribute novel modes of presentation as to what you mean.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mark
>>
>> On 1/26/12, MarshaV <valkyr@att....> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Horse <horse@dark...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marsha's explorations do little to advance the MoQ (in my opinion) but I
>>>> don't think she is doing harm.
>>>
>>>
>>> Greetings Horse,
>>>
>>> I am very interested in investigating the MoQ as a bridge between the East
>>> and West.  From RMP's initial interest in Northrop's 'Meeting of East and
>>> West: An Inquiry Concerning World Understanding' and his recommendation of
>>> Steve Hagan's book ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, I think he is quite
>>> interested in accommodating both East and West philosophies.  If you think
>>> my approach so far has been a dismal failure, maybe you suggest a few
>>> strategies more to your liking.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Marsha
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