Greetings Our Father,

On Feb 5, 2012, at 1:45 AM, 118 <ununoctiums@gmai...> wrote:

> Marsha,
> There is plenty to say about it.  You just have to find the words.

There might be plenty to say, but the point is mindfulness is experience without the narration (old news).

> Who is watching the stream of thoughts that you present below?

I am not aware of any watcher.  There is watching.


> Certainly it is not the thoughts watching themselves, is it?  Just dig
> a little deeper, you may be almost there.  Of course you cannot watch
> the watcher, but what difference does that make?  

Within the state of mindfulness, mindfulness stands on its own; why project and speculate beyond the experience?  Ham may require a "primary source", and maybe you do too, but I am content not to go in that direction.  


> Do you need to watch something to know it is there?  Do you need to watch Love to make it
> real?

I may experience, indeed, experience love, but without the need to measure and define (conceptualize) the experience.  


> Let go, just a little.  It is right there beside you.  You don't need
> to look at it directly to prove to yourself that it exists.  It is the
> screen on which all this movie is being played.  If a movie did not
> have a screen, we sure could not see the movie.  If life was not
> played on something, we would not be aware of being alive.

What?  Consciousness?  Quality?  Just as the Buddhist say that 'form is not other than emptiness and emptiness is not other than form', for me static quality is not other than Dynamic Quality and Dynamic Quality is not other than static quality.  Or the determinate is not other than the indeterminate and the indeterminate is not other than the determinate.  It is this groundlessness that is the condition for a wondrous and interdependent world of experience; it is the letting go.  


> Besides, it has nothing to do with "watching one's thoughts".  That
> sounds too intellectual. Do you spend all day watching your heart
> beat?  If not, then why not?  It is as much you as your brain.

They can be understood as two separate experiences:  meditation ("watching the thoughts") and mindfulness (experience without the self), but in all cases these words are not the experience.  There are many different introspective practices; my exposure is limited; I am far from being an expert.  


>  If you
> did not have a mirror, would you spend all day wondering what is doing
> the seeing?  If you look for the "I" you will never find it, just like
> you cannot look for your eyes.  But that is far from convincing proof
> that you do not have eyes.

That the mind is a mirror of nature is a Cartesian metaphor.  I prefer the mirror as presenting a reflection that is wondrous, but with no additional reality apart from itself.  I am not sure how you are using the mirror metaphor.  


> Cheers,
> Mark

Marsha


>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:40 PM, MarshaV <valkyr@att....> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> There is a meditation technique where you watch of the stream of thoughts (bits and pieces of pattern) going through your mind without attaching to the them.  I have never been able to watch the watcher so there is nothing to say about that experience.
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:56 PM, 118 <ununoctiums@gmai...> wrote:
>>
>>> Marsha,
>>>
>>> Mark says "touch your nose".  It is as simple as that.  Of course you
>>> would say that you do not have a nose, but that the stream has them.
>>> To that I say, "stream touch your nose".  I feel like I am posting to
>>> a ghost of some kind.  Do you come out at night?  Are you kind of wavy
>>> and spooky?  Are you one of those Dean Koontz characters?
>>>
>>> Besides, when you say "if you watch the stream..", what do you mean by
>>> that?  Is there a "you" that can actually watch the stream?  You seem
>>> to contradict yourself in a single paragraph.  At least get your story
>>> straight.  Is there something that can watch the stream or isn't
>>> there?  Is it one big tangle of nothing at all?   And if it is nothing
>>> at all, then why do you post about it?  Nothing comes from Nothing, as
>>> they say.  Wisper me sweet nothings...
>>>
>>> You are starting to worry me.  Perhaps you really are an algorithm,
>>> constantly mutating like a computer virus in a mindless way.  Perhaps
>>> there is no ghost in that machine.  WAKE UP!  Is there anybody in
>>> there?  Perhaps it is impossible to do mindfulness if there is nothing
>>> to do it.  That would explain a lot.  Let go of all that baloney, if
>>> just for a moment.  You are free of patterns!  You are nothing more or
>>> less than you.  You do not need any excuses.
>>>
>>> The Devil made me do it.  Those gosh darn manipulative patterns.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On 2/3/12, MarshaV <valkyr@att....> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> Marsha says what can be found, first-hand, is a continuous, stream of
>>>> experiences, but not an independent, inherently-existing, substantial self
>>>> that is calling the shots.  And if you watch the stream of experiences, you
>>>> find that the stream is made up of discontinuous bits and pieces of patterns
>>>> with associated feelings, perceptions, motivation and awareness.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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