Hi Tuukka, not healthy for you to give us all your advice as some
generalised "you" - we're all different with different motivations,
you know.

BTW you said
"I recall Matt gave me the idea of circular emergence,"
If true, I'd be interested in the reference / link, since it was the
topic I also communicated with you ?

Take care, good luck, and stay in contact whatever.
Ian

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
<mail@tuuk...> wrote:
> All,
>
> Lately I've had a hard time figuring out why should I participate in
> discussion in the MOQ community. Not one person in the world understands my
> work. The mathematical structure of my metaphysics is understood by some,
> although none of them (with the possible exception of Tim) apparently
> belongs to the MOQ community. The maths portion describes the form of the
> SOQ but not the content. Nobody has shown definite interest in the
> metaphysical content of the work, that is, why there should be normative or
> aesthetic value, or why subjective value should be split into levels of
> static value just like objective value. Ant had reached the point of
> actually being able to question the latter notion and the thoughts
> underlying it, but as we didn't quite agree, the whole debate was just left
> inconclusive. Some ask me why I'm doing this, or that I should "sell" my
> idea to them. This mostly indicates that the idea already failed to sell
> itself. Or what do they expect? That I tell them the SOQ are a foundation
> for a very intelligent AI, even though I can't prove it? That I tell them
> the SOQ are "the truth"?
>
> Arlo even questioned the idea that the SOQ is based on the MOQ. Since I have
> to include the MOQ foundation in the SOQ anyhow in order to not be obviously
> vulnerable to accusations of plagiarism, I get a situation where I feel I
> can't say anything. If I emphasize the role of the MOQ as a foundation of
> the SOQ, people will not recognize it, and they will not tell me why they
> find the SOQ to have so little to do with the MOQ, even though it frequently
> uses the same concepts. They will not tell me why they hold the number four
> as sacred, as in, that there have to be exactly four levels of static value,
> and a MOQ with eight or sixteen levels is not MOQ or at least not
> interesting in any way whatsoever. But if I don't emphasize the MOQ as a
> foundation of the SOQ, the SOQ apparently begin to look like off-topic.
>
> The reason I wanted Pirsig's e-mail address initially was, that I was
> beginning to see that nobody in this community is actually going to comment
> details of my work or publicly affirm anything in my work as correct.
> Perhaps this will change as time passes and my ideas sink in, but perhaps it
> will not. I thought Pirsig might be interested of this kind of work. But my
> letter to Pirsig was not delivered, apparently, and I was not given his
> e-mail address. Instead, on both MD and LS, I was reassured that Pirsig
> surely is aware of my work, without giving any reason why he would. As I'm
> getting the feeling I am not taken seriously here, I guess I have no more to
> say. Although some took my work seriously, they preferred to express their
> support privately.
>
> It's been a good trip, though. I recall Matt gave me the idea of circular
> emergence, which I finally managed to integrate into SOQ. Mark also gave
> some good ideas. The reason why I have been here is that after seven years,
> this stuff is getting so remote from everyday life that I have no motivation
> to finish the development unless I can talk about these things with someone,
> even if they didn't give any clear indication of understanding what I'm
> doing. But lately, it seems my input to this community has amounted to me
> fighting with people. We have the authority problems of the academia, yet
> not the authority of the academia. Notions like "the MOQ is contemporary
> philosophy, hence, analytic interpretation of the MOQ is not MOQ" make no
> more sense than claiming there are really no platypi, because they don't fit
> into the existing taxonomy used by biologists. At some point, I just have to
> stop caring about stuff like that. I would have wanted to get Pirsig's
> e-mail address, and I have felt that anyone who possesses it but does not
> give it to me is a terrorist. But I'm not going to do anything about that.
> In any case, it's beginning to seem like I no longer have a reason to
> participate in the activities of this community. So, unless a reason
> emerges, goodbye and maybe see you later.
>
> The hardest thing to accept was the constant paranoia and suspicion about
> disliked people believing in SOM, of which nobody exactly knows, what that
> is. You don't have to care about me, but if you care about the MOQ, you
> should eventually realize that perceiving anyone with a new idea as an
> attacker will not do your philosophy any good. The MOQ can be a vital
> tradition of discussion, but the discussions have to go somewhere. If the
> MOQ is, and always will be, only something Pirsig wrote, the tradition will
> die within a generation. I'm not a zealot myself. I am a practical person
> who wishes to develop metaphysics that facilitate maximum sanity for
> himself. I did not appreciate that I was perceived as an egocentric person
> who came here to tell others what to believe. While I did tell you what to
> believe, I was not egocentric. And I don't really know how to tell you this,
> but on both LS and MD, my thinking was believed to suffer from elementary
> mistakes of which it doesn't suffer. If anyone who comes here has to prove
> so much about themselves, you won't have here other kind of people than the
> likes of you: paranoid fighters. If that's what you're going to have here,
> good luck with getting the MOQ mainstream. You're going to need it, as the
> key to winning the acceptance of other people is to accept them first.
>
> Tuukka
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