FWIW Arlo, I meant something much simpler by "THE MoQ" being Pirsig's idea(s).
You had said it seemed odd to suggest those ideas "changed" - I just
used the word evolution to refer to the nature of that change. As you
say, non-contentious suggestion. (And certainly not new from me.)
The uncontentious stuff?
Quality before subjects & objects.
Static patterns of quality in the 4 significant layers.
DQ as the potential for all patterns of quality, "radically empirical"
experience independent of prior conception of static patterns,
patterns that arise from processing that experience.
MoQ as evolving ideas ? It is itself a picture of how patterns have
evolved historically. If it's any good as a universal framework - a
metaphysics - (which I think it is) - it's also a picture of how
patterns continue to evolve.
No-one is competing for any crown - Pirsig already got there (as you
say building on ideas - knowingly or unknowingly - of plenty of other
As you already know my interest is not in isms, but in practical use
of the resultant framework. Any issues I have are second order
compared to the non-contentious stuff, and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - well
covered by the inbuilt evolvability of that non-contentious stuff.
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 5:25 PM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR <ajb102@psu....> wrote:
> Obviously Pirsig's ideas, "THE MoQ" evolve - in his own writing and in a community like MD. Simple fact.
> Hey Ian. Agree, ideas evolve, is that something that really even needs to be said? Who is arguing otherwise?
> I think (to pick a point of contention) for me I really don't understand what it means to say "The MOQ evolves" without a clear pronouncement of what is meant by "the MOQ". And I think its multiple uses continues to be a source of confusion for some. As I read it, there are two legitimate uses of the phrase here, and one problematic one in between them.
> (1) "The MOQ" = "Pirsig's ideas" (akin to "Pragmaticism = Peirce's ideas")
> (2) "The MOQ" = School of Philosophy built upon X premise(s) (akin to "Pragmatism includes James, Peirce and Dewey's ideas")
> and in between, (1.5) "The MOQ" = a label of legitimacy given to a single philosophy at any given time, that can be rebuked and handed to another philosophy (akin to "We consider Pirsig's metaphysics as The MOQ today, but we may decide that John Doe's ideas are better tomorrow and deem them The MOQ instead")
> In cases (1) and (2) the evolutionary processes are historically obvious. Yes, Peirce's ideas evolved over the course of his writing, and yes ideas attributed to the school of pragmatism have evolved into what we think of as neopragmatism (among other trajectories). I'm befuddled as to how seeking clarity in a specific author's ideas somehow denies evolution or seeks to stop it from happening.
> In the case of (1.5) the evolutionary process really has no meaningful precedent in the historical dialogue. Its more like a Stanley Cup we hand out to whatever idea "wins" the current round of "debate". Mark called for this, happily, to undergo a radical change so that "The MOQ" of tomorrow may be completely different from "The MOQ" of today. I can't come up with a single case in the history of philosophy were a term like this has shifted meaning like this. Indeed, the statement itself pretty much implies that "The MOQ" means nothing except a label of designation that itself can be applied to radically opposed or divergent ideas at different times. You, me, Pirsig, Mark, everyone is competing for whose ideas will win the coveted "The MOQ" crown.
> In any event, it would be interesting to see what words people would use if Horse banned the use of "The MOQ" in every context. I think you'd see some people easily substituting "Pirsig's ideas", and others moving to something like "MOQmatism" (spirationalism?), while others would have a very hard time finding a substitute for this phrase.
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