> So ... you say social change / political change (for
> the better) is impossible.
> I'd say it's very difficult - but not impossible -
> requiring a lot of
> hearts and minds changing on many levels, cultural
> views of values
> etc. ... it's the giant that needs changing in my
as hundreds of sages through the ages have said in
different words, only you can free yourself. politics
is not the answer (do i have to point this out!!!).
the giant needs to be slain man. again this is not
just me but hundreds of righteous dudes east and west
saying this. for instance nietzsce calls the giant the
dragon but his fate has to be the same: death. until
the giant/dragon (st george and the dragon is EXACTLY
about this) is slain there can be no psychological
evolution, and we remain in the same old reality,
forever fighting ourselves.
> Anyway, accepting that task as impossible you seem
> to say ... (let me
> put words in your mouth) ... "to hell with the rest
> of the existing
> world" ... it's already on its way out anyway.
i am the existing world. the world is but a
relationship between my self and i - the transcendent
i - consciousness itself. this relationship is
currently mediated by social factors that can never be
fully transcended until everyone gets enlightened.
hence the bodhisattva tradition, christ etc. we in it
together like it or not. we can achieve some measure
of liberation individually, detached from society, but
i don't want to spend my life in a monastery.
> (Gav) personally will
> retreat into my own ego-transcendant world where I
> can interact with
> the natural world on its own terms ... true to my
> own belief ... end
> of story ?
no. i cannot do this because i am interdependent with
society, as i said above. my freedom and the freedom
of everyone are inextricably linked. 'no man is an
island' - this is what john donne was saying and this
is why hemingway used this poem at the start of his
best book about the spanish civil war (nice segue) -
the same territory that started this thread. if we
wish freedom for ourselves - we wish it for all. BUT
it is not something that can be imposed - this is
clear - so how do we cultivate freedom. well by honest
discussion for one. by engaging with the world with
integrity, and sometimes you even have to fight for
it. and though you will almost certainly lose if you
do, freedom is still served...because it is better to
die on your feet than live on your knees.
> I have to ask ... do you have loved ones in that
> world ... people who
> are perhaps unwittingly part of that giant ? Or do
> you see "us" (you
> and the entities you care about) as quite distinct
> from "them" (those
> that comprise the giant) ?
we and the giant are inseparable. individually we can
achieve some measure of liberation but we cannot
achieve full liberation alone; we must help each other
untie the knots that bind, and keep untying them cos
the giant will keep trying to tie you up. i guess a
critical balance point will be reached (hopefully in
my lifetime) where the giant's power is lessened
relative to the liberating efforts of many.
> I guess what I can't quite believe is that in a
> world where all of us
> (all the enlightened survivors anyway) have
> transcended our egos and
> relinquished any social control - that there is or
> will be no society
> at all ? We've not just done away with the
> prevailing model of society
> - we actually have no society ?
no the locus of control will shift - from social to
individual. we will have no need of 'explicit
society', if you like. no need for laws, prisons, any
absolute restrictions of freedom. instead the harmony
of nature will be enough, as it is for the rest of the
planet. this is why i am harping on about the nature
of this shift. we are talking about moving from one
reality to a totally different one. this is a huge
> Society can never fix society ... as you put it ...
> so individuals
> must detroy it ?
> These are purely practical questions for me.
destroying the giant - explicit controlling society -
is a job for every individual. it is done not through
violence (for that is the giant's tool) but through
love, patience, kindness, awareness, steadfastness.