In the Baletto Polacco on p.19/3rd line the up-stroke following Chord +
indicates that the whole chord is to be repeated followed by the single
note.   The same
thing happens after the Chord B. It is a different situation from bar 1
where the single notes with strokes are between alfabeto chords.

Bartolotti's book was published in about 1640 and he indicates
when the full chord should not be played either by using a lettere tagliate
or by writing out the chord in tablature. Nowhere is it implied that you
should otherwise play fewer courses.

He has a system for indicating right hand fingering for single notes which
implies that otherwise when there are stroke marks mainly between chords
these should be included
in the chord.   Nevertheless there are vestiges of
earlier practice where he has put up-stroke marks under notes which can't be
included in the chord.   And he sometimes [puts dots for right-hand fingers.
What he actually says in his introduction is rather
ambiguous.   There are places where he hasn't put in either the right-hand
fingering or a stroke mark.

As far as I am concerned I feel that Foscarini and Corbetta have made it
reasonably
clear that passing notes between alfabeto chords are to be played as single
notes.  By the time we get to Corbetta's 1643 book everything is becoming
more precise.

And to be honest I think  the idea that anyone would be entirely consistent
is unrealistic.

Monica

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmartyn@yaho...>
To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.d...>; "Monica Hall"
<mjlhall@tisc...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation


>
>   Dear Monica,
>
>   Further to my last I've now got round to reading the rest of yr email.
>   And can thus respond to the matters you raised
>
>   Firsly when you wrote
>
>   "it In the first bar of the Balletto Polacco on p.19 it is physically
>   impossible to include the 5 following G3 in the chord as you repeat
>   it and it is impossible to play a trill on Chord G anyway.   It is
>   just possible to include the 8 in chord M5 using a 4th finger hinge
>   barre
>   if you really must.  The 8 following Chord H5 is to be included in
>   the first chord and resolved in the second. I think Fosco does have
>   some logic to his notation and is clearly    indicating the way his
>   music should be played.   But it is quite different from Martyn's"
>
>   REPLY:
>
>   1. It's only physically impossible if you think all 5 courses must
>   ALWAYS be strummed/brushed - surely other sources tell us this was not
>   always the case: Bartolotti for example who, whilst of course being
>   later, describes partial chords and this MAY have been an earlier
>   assumed practice. Thus to play the 5 with the G chord you use the
>   fourth finger to stop the 5 and just upstroke the highest 3 courses
>   (what I call 'partial' or 'discriminatory' play).   BUT I agree the
>   trill On 5 couldn't be played this way so I'm quite happy to agree this
>   single note is plucked!
>
>   2. Your other examples do indeed show how possible it is to play this
>   with strums. And, yes, of course we assume the 43 cadence on H5 -
>   strummed is good here.
>
>   3. The general point in introducing this particular piece as an example
>   was to illustrate that Foscarini was quite able to notate single notes
>   with just flags without recourse to additional unecessary notation (the
>   strokes/slashes). It continues to intrigue me.....see below
>
>   Following on from 3, your other comment is " When the passing notes are
>   between strummed alfabeto chords like this he puts in stroke marks to
>   separate the single notes from the chords."
>
>   REPLY
>
>   4. In response to this let me draw your attention to another passage I
>   mentioned earlier: the sequence at the beginning of the penultimate
>   line of the Balletto starting with the + chord. Here he seems quite
>   able to accurately notate a single plucked note inbetween alfabeto
>   chords without this additional (redundant) slash.  Your comment above
>   would have required him to insert another stroke/slash for the single
>   note.....
>
>   All good stuff - I'm enjoying playing him
>
>   Martyn
>   --- On Wed, 8/9/10, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmartyn@yaho...> wrote:
>
>     From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmartyn@yaho...>
>     Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation
>     To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.d...>, "Monica Hall"
>     <mjlhall@tisc...>
>     Date: Wednesday, 8 September, 2010, 7:57
>
>      Good to hear you again Monica.
>      As you'll not be surprised to know, I suggest there is a fourth
>   option
>      to the list of possible reasons for F writing strokes/slashes:
>         1.    He intends the notes to be played alternating thumb and
>   finger
>         2.    He intends them to be played "dedillo"
>         3.    He is simply imposing the stroke pattern on the notes which
>      would
>         be appropriate if the alfabeto chord were simply to be repeated
>      without
>         passing notes.
>         4.   He intends a partial (discriminatory) strum - if not in La
>      Favorita then in other pieces in the collection and as found in
>   other
>      sources (such as the de Gallot looked at earlier).
>      regards
>      Martyn
>      --- On Tue, 7/9/10, Monica Hall <[1]mjlhall@tisc...> wrote:
>        From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlhall@tisc...>
>        Subject: [VIHUELA] [Vihuela]Foscarini's notation
>        To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.d...>
>        Date: Tuesday, 7 September, 2010, 17:32
>         As I have in fact received some of these message off the list it
>      seems
>         inevitable that I should rejoin to put the record straight as I
>      think
>         you are barking up the wrong tree.
>         In the first bar of the Balletto Polacco on p.19 it is physically
>         impossible to include the 5 following G3 in the chord as you
>   repeat
>      it
>         and it is impossible to play a trill on Chord G anyway.   It is
>   just
>         possible to include the 8 in chord M5 using a 4th finger hinge
>   barre
>      if
>         you really must.  The 8 following Chord H5 is to be included in
>   the
>         first chord and resolved in the second.
>         I think Fosco does have some logic to his notation and is clearly
>         indicating the way his music should be played.   But it is quite
>         different from Martyn's.  When the passing notes are between
>      strummed
>         alfabeto chords like this he puts in stroke marks to separate
>         the single notes from the chords.  This is also necessary because
>   he
>         needs to distinguish between what appear to be single notes which
>      are
>         to be included in the chord like the 8 following the H5 and those
>      which
>         are not to be inserted.  This is how music entirely in alfabeto
>   is
>         notated.   Otherwise  he would need to put a note value above the
>      stave
>         for each alternate single  note.
>         This dual system is not because Foscarini does not know how to
>   use
>      his
>         tablature.   Rather he is combining two different types of
>         tablature logically  in music which is in mixed style at a very
>      early
>         stage in its development.
>         In the corrente on p.60 it is impossible to include the passing
>      notes
>         in the chords in at least two places.  There are at least three
>      reasons
>         why Fosco may have put in up and down strokes on the first line
>      which
>         have nothing to do with strumming the chords.
>         1.    He intends the notes to be played alternating thumb and
>   finger
>         2.    He intends them to be played "dedillo"
>         3.    He is simply imposing the stroke pattern on the notes which
>      would
>         be appropriate if the alfabeto chord were simply to be repeated
>      without
>         passing notes.
>         I think the last is the most likely.
>         Finally the main reason for wanting to drop out of the discussion
>   at
>         this point is because it is a constant distraction to keep
>   receiving
>         E-mails which need to be responded to fairly promptly if the
>      discussion
>         is to follow a logical course.  This often involves checking
>   sources
>         and other files for information and spending a great deal of time
>         trying to explain very complex issues without the aid of
>      illustrations
>         or musical examples.   I prefer to deal with my E-mails once a
>   day
>      so
>         don't expect to hear from me again until tomorrow.
>         A complete translation of Fosco's introduction with illustrations
>      etc.
>         is on my webpage - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk  which makes it all
>   the
>      more
>         pointless to go over it again.   I am currently working on the
>         introduction to Corbetta's 1639 book which sheds a lot more light
>   on
>         how guitar notation developed.  I have temporarily put  on my
>   page
>      at
>         [2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com the passage which deals with the same
>         situations which you find in Foscarini with examples of
>   Corbetta's
>         notation.  It is in the section for Scores - at the top of the
>   list.
>         Finally in one of my previous messages I refered to the Bologna
>         manuscript which includes some alfabeto songs and gave the date
>   as
>         1680s. It should of course have been 1580s.
>         Monica
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         From: [3]Martyn Hodgson
>         To: [4]Stuart Walsh
>         Cc: [5]Monica Hall ; [6]Vihuelalist
>         Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:26 PM
>         Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why two notations for the same play?
>         Thanks for this Stuart.
>         I was rather surprised by Monica; particularly since I've
>   frequently
>         praised her work and we were, so I thought, simply seeking a
>      scholarly
>         explanation to fit all the principal evidence. As you say,
>         misunderstandings can easily arise during a long thread by not
>      reading
>         everything written.
>         The problem still remains as summarised below and best seen by
>      looking
>         at the Balletto Pollaca on p.19 (moved on from La Favorita)
>   where
>         'single' note passages are notated in two distinct ways which I
>      suggest
>         may indicate different ways of playing and Monica believes are
>      always
>         meant to be played exactly the same (if I understand her aright).
>      I'm
>         not at all convinced that the use of different notation to
>   achieve
>      an
>         identical outcome is a result of Foscarini not understanding how
>   to
>         write his tablature.
>         Also note particularly in the Balletto Pollaca that both halves
>      start
>         off with strummed chords with some single passing notes with
>   these
>         slashes/strokes and then half way through each half we have
>   passages
>      of
>         quavers notated by ordinary tablature flags.  Foscarini also
>   seems
>         quite able to make other subtle distinctions in his tablature
>      elsewhere
>         in this (and other) pieces. For example, look at the penultimate
>      line:
>         we get a sequence from the + chord (down/quaver up strum) plucked
>         quaver open 4th course etc,  but after the D chord the first
>   quaver
>      is
>         plucked not strummed. In short I think this sort of
>   sophistication
>         indicates he knew what he was doing and why I believe we still
>   need
>      to
>         understand why he notates  some passages differently from others
>   if
>         they were to be executed in exactly the same way.
>         regards
>         --
>      References
>         1. [1][4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
>         2. [2][5]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
>         3. mailto:[3][6]hodgsonmartyn@yaho...
>         4. mailto:[4][7]s.walsh@ntlw...
>         5. mailto:[5][8]mjlhall@tisc...
>         6. mailto:[6][9]vihuela@cs.d...
>      To get on or off this list see list information at
>      [7][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>      --
>   References
>      1. [11]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
>      2. [12]http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
>      3.
>   [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho...
>   .uk
>      4.
>   [14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlw...
>      5.
>   [15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tisc...
>      6.
>   [16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
>   du
>      7. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>   --
>
> References
>
>   1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tisc...
>   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tisc...
>   3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.d...
>   4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
>   5. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
>   6.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho...
>   7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlw...
>   8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tisc...
>   9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.d...
>  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  11. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/
>  12. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/
>  13.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho...
>  14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlw...
>  15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tisc...
>  16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.d...
>  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>